outback aviator

and also hot air from the engine bleeds to prevent ice forming in the engine air intake

PaperTiger

prevent ice forming in the engine air intake

That jogged something, I remember an AD about this when the F50 first came out. Can't find the text online, but the AD number from Fokker was F50-30-003 of 1988. Probably irrelevant as it is hard to imagine that AD not being applied in the intervening 14 years. What was the age of this particular airframe ?

Rwy in Sight

I was talking with a former Air Force instructor last Thrusday and he told me that some pilots tend to believe that during an ILS approach they are higher than they should be. So they tend to increase the rate of decent.

Is it true and if yes could that be a factor.

Rwy in Sight

Oldjet Jockey

Anyone thought of a possible compressor stall with sudden change of throttle settings during a go around?
I dont know these engines but compressor stalls have been known when throttles are quickly opened! Is there some electronic control during GA that could have malfunctioned?

A4

With the crash site being approximately 5-6km from the airport, that would equate to about 4 miles / OM / 1000' ATRE. If the RVR was below the required minimum then they may well have been executing a missed approach (not allowed to continue if RVR below minima).

If indeed it turns out to be a twin compressor stall then the time to analyse and deal with the problem would have been minimal.

Condolences to all affected by this accident.....

A4

Sensible Garage

PaperTiger:

Type F27-050
C/n 20221
first flight 07jun91
01may91 PH-EXU Fokker
18jun91 LX-LGB Luxair
PROBLEM Offered for sale jun00.
NOTED Seen at Woendrecht 30nov01.

Superpilut

The acft was from 1991, frame 20221.
Normally you can open the throttles very fast...
And regarding the diving during an ILS: it was a CAT II, so flown through the autopilot.

Sorry S.G. I didn't see you posted the number already..

What do you mean with: "Problem: Offered for sale... "

Flight Girl

Please, guys, stop the speculations and just wait until we hear what really happened.

But let's make a few things clear:
- Luxair is JAR approved and has very high training standards that are permanently supervised also by Lufthansa, even Quick Access Recorder were installed in almost all the a/c so LH could check that Luxair and crews are working by the book.
- As the training is equal it is not necessary to say "only experienced pilots will fly". So on a "normal" day they send out "unexperienced pilots" and good luck to everyone?
- Birds definitely fly in clouds and fog or do you think they would take a brake, stop when they find a bunch of suitable trees and take a picknick? Then it would take them very long to reach warmer areas for the winter
- and there definitely were tons of wild geese crossing the airport that day, no matter if that was a factor or not
- control in Luxembourg is professional, but not the best. Eg. your "cleared visual, maintain 3000ft" (cleared visual or not??)
- Luxair a/c and crews are approved Cat I, II and even IIIa; Cat II is flown on Autopilot so there's no staying above the glide
- the a/c was not holding anymore as G.Fongern/VC had been quoted in some newspapers but was on approach ILS 24

With kind regards to the victims, the only two survivors, especially the Captain and all their families and relatives as well as Luxair Crews, as for them these really are hard times as they lost collegues and friends and had a quick but hard realization of what can happen not only to others but also to them - please stop speculation about any mistakes of the crew or whatever.
They will absolutely appreciate it!

Kaptin M

Were they flying to Cat I or Cat II mins?

Maybe they hit a UFO!!
The wild conjecture by a few here does indeed prove that "a little knowledge is sometimes a dangerous thing", and that "it is sometimes better to keep your mouth shut and appear to know nothing at all, than to open it and remove all doubt"!

I have appreciated hearing some of the FACTS from people who have a working knowledge of the F27 500 (thank you), but NOT from others who are comparing apples with oranges.

Rwy in Sight, I think that the pilot with whom you were talking was probably referring to "duck under" - a phenomenom that may occur when a pilot becomes visual following an IFR approach. At that point in time there can be a visual illusion that one is too high, and hence a tendency to "pole forward" (increase the rate of descent) - thus the need to monitor the PAPI and glide slope rather than relying on one's senses!

Belgique

http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/aircraf...50/f50-012.pdf

AD/F50/12 Engine Anti-Ice Control Unit 3/89
Applicability: F27 Mark 050 aircraft.
Requirement: Replace engine anti-ice control units in accordance with the requirements of Fokker
SB F50-30-003.
Note: RLD AD BLA No. 88-105 refers.
Compliance: Forthwith.
Background: Following a number of flight tests which revealed ice formation in the engine intake
duct, the manufacturer has released a new anti-ice control unit which increases the
protection of the intake duct against ice formation. Fokker SB F50-30-003 details the
procedure for replacement of the anti-ice control unit.

Captain104

FLIGHT GIRL:
" please stop speculation about any mistakes of the crew or whatever."
Well said and appropriate at this time. Thank you.

Also agree on most of other points you brought up. A small remark: Heard rumours from people close to investigation that they were looking carefully for traces of bird remains(blood/feathers) and did not find any yet. In a radio transmission yesterday someone stated in french that one could exclude bird strike. Have no idea how valid these infos are. Wild speculation?

FLY BY HEART
Could you enlighten me where you got this info "Since one engine might have been shut down (acording to FDR)"???
Did I miss somesthing?

Regards

Stratocaster

Ref. Rwy in Sight and the "we're too high on the ILS, I dive"-stuff...

Altimeters are calibrated in ISA conditions. So if you have a positive deviation from ISA (warmer conditions) your altimeter will over-read. On the other hand, in colder temperatures the altimeter will under-read. You shouldn't worry too much about it unless your ISA deviation reaches -15 or even goes beyond that (which wasn't the case for the Luxair F-50 anyway). In the sim some guys absolutely love to play with that, and what usually saves the crew is their radio-altimeter...

There's a correction table in the Jepp manual, so that you can easily apply the necessary corrections to your altitudes in cold weather ops approaches. There's also a rule of thumb, but tired brains after 11hrs on duty tend to forget it.


Maybe that's what some of the Air Force pilots took for an error coming from the ILS ??

FlyByHeart

Captain104 - I don't know if you missed something, or I just misunderstood a previous post (by BeePee, Nov 8th 17:48):

I admit that it is pure speculation, and that it is not the time to do so - I do apologize to all involved.

FlyByHeart

Captain104

FLY BY HEART
Sorry, I think I missed it, not you. Still not sure that on FDR there is to read out that ONE engine has been shut down by crew.
Well, all speculation. Propose to leave it there. Have a nice weekend.

minimumclean

IF(!), after a double engine flame-out, an airstart is to be performed, the fuel lever of the affected engine (to be started) should be in shut (Fokker QRH): thus 1 engine shutdown. Then you initiate an airstart; i would (so close to the ground..) do it by heart, this could be an explanation..

polyglory

I have just read this suggesting engine failure?

http://www.news.lu/

Sensible Garage

SP, data is copy-paste from a/c database, seems Luxair had them for sale at reported date
"problem" indicates that according to that database the a/c was not noted for a while and was suspected to have been sold and been given new reg, hope that clarify's things

PS, you flew for ATAS way back?

BeePee

@ Flight Girl, re your posts and your private message

1) I don't post "nonsense" - in fact I have access to some inside information.
2) I defined the statement “…but only “experienced” pilot will be allowed to fly” as a “wild rumor”, it is supposedly a quote from down-town – and rather hostile.
3) In my post nowhere I criticized Luxair’s training standards. In fact I talked about the fact that the hostile policy of the minister is having its toll on the quality of the Luxembourg Aviation Industry (including training standards).

I’m primarily concerned about safety here and since Grethen became Transport Minister in 1999 the policy of the ministry has taken a nasty 180. I’m further adamant that the current policy of this minister has a negative influence on the aviation industry in Luxembourg. It would be very sad indeed if at the end it would turn out to have already been a contributing factor in this terrible accident.

I post this public to make sure that there is no further misunderstanding.

Greetings
BeePee

Ignition Override

I feel bad for everyone involved in these tragedies.

These remarks address shortfalls in one major airline's training syllabi, for at least two different jet fleets. If an engine on a twin-engine turboprop fails during final approach, it is very easy for me to imagine the challenge of flying such a plane with the prop not in feather, unless crews are regularly trained for this very dangerous situation. Of course, I have no idea what happened to the Fokker 50, or what their training consists of.

Over the last sixteen years on two different twin-turbofan jets (avg. about 108,000 or 227,000 lbs MTOW, i.e. either 100 or 194 passengers), my airline trained me only ONE TIME for an engine failure during final approach, and this was about a year ago with very good visibility during a visual while at about 2,000' AGL on the glideslope. If at MDA on a non-prec. approach, it would be difficult, even for very experienced pilots, to safely regain control while staying on course, altitude and at a safe airspeed! With one or two exceptions (i.e. many years ago, in holding) each simulated flame-out was at V1 speed. For the laymen, this is when you must continue the takeoff, unless the Captain has already initiated a very rapid and intense abort procedure. During an approach to many small airports, or to a large airport with an inop. glideslope, a failed engine can be difficult to quickly and correctly identify (as the plane suddenly slows down below approach speed and quickly yaws away from the localizer, VOR or NDB course, maybe towards hills or trees which are hidden by the fog), with the immediate need to also identify the prop to be 'feathered'.

Who knows? The time we spent doing FAA-mandated, simulated "Valuejet" cabin smoke emergiencies, although productive, might also have been spent on other engine-failure scenarios...Apparently the FAA finds it very difficult to consider the need for engine failure training other than what is required for a high-speed abort or during rotation at V1-V2 . The airlines are very focused now, even more than before the recession, on their 'precious' training budgets and four-hour simulator slots.

May Heaven help the Fokker Captain through his "Sp. Inquisition", assuming that he physically/mentally recovers.

Panman

Just food for thought for all those speculating on compressor stall from rapid application of thrust. Those PW turboprops are they axial flow or centrifugal compressors. Remembering that axials are the ones that are prone to surge/stall.