Dash8100

Tragic. In a flatter landscape the outcome could have been different for the souls onboard.

minimumclean

Just ter info:

A F-50 has a so-called ERP: engine-rating-panel with the following possible selections: Take-off, Go-around, Flex (these are push-buttons, and only when 1 of these selections is done AND the power levers are IN THE DETENT the autofeather is/should-be armed.
Then the other selections are climb, cruise and max contimuus thrust, in these selections you will NEVER have autofeather.

And Dash8100, "flat country-only flying" is not for ATP's (to make sure, Airline Transport Pilots, not the other A/C)!!

Dash8100

Why the angry face and comment? You must have misunderstood my post.

"...The aircraft's wheels initially touched in a field about two meters before the road. After crossing the road the aircraft struck an embankment rising about two meters above the road ..."

I only meant that if the aircraft would have had the chance to slide to a stop in a flatter landscape, the chances for survival would have been better". That's all. Of course that's not how mother nature is made.

There's too much anger in the world already

golfyankeesierra

To add another to the list of speculations: wake?
Anyone knows whether the Fokker was following other traffic (and what kind) on approach?

cantillon

Am I missing something, but why are the CAT 1 minimums for the airport in question, which are posted on this thread, less than 200feet agl?

See http://www.jacdec.de/news.htm

Canard

Cantillon,

You are indeed missing something! The figures on the plate refer to OCA(H) Obstacle Clearance Altitude(Height) NOT DA(H) Decision Altitude(Height). On a CAT I approach the DH is a minimum of 200' provided that the OCH is <200'. If the OCH is >200 then the DH will equal the OCH rounded up to the most convenient figure. State produced plates (as the example is) show OCA(H). Jeppesen/AERAD then copy those plates and show the relevant DA(H). CAT II approaches have the same rules except the minimum DH is 100'

Canard

spuis

The autofeather/APR (automatic power reserve) on the Fokker 50 works as follows:

The system is standby when
-T/O G/A or flex is selected on the ERP or
-the landing gear is down.
AND -neither propellor feathered

The system is armed(and will autofeather) providing the following conditions:
-it is in standby and
-the power levers are in the T/O detent and
-Torque rises above 50%

It is then activated when the torque of an engine drops below 25%

This means that on a typical approach the prop will not autofeather.
With sufficient time available (1500-2000 feet) the approach can be continued without to much handling problems.
A failure at lower altitudes will necessitate a go-around which is a bit of a bitch with one engine (still) unfeathered.

But who knows what really happened out there???

woopwooppulup

sad day for all involved, all us F50 drivers send our deepest sympathies to families and Luxair.

Captain104

Luxembourg radio just reporting that a government spokesman told reporters: both engines quit on approach. Info 2 engines out from cockpit voice recorder? Cause still unknown.

Regards

Captain104

If my french is still good enough:
1) French safety experts exclude terror and birdstrike.
2) Blackboxes( FDR and CVR) indicate a double engine failure just
"shortly prior hitting ground".

Room for a lot of speculation.

Best regards

BeePee

Hi,

On the official site of the LUX Gov: http://www.gouvernement.lu/salle_pre...ete/index.html

"L’examen du site et de l’épave ... est maintenant terminé. Il en ressort que les moteurs ne délivraient pas de puissance au moment de l’impact avec le sol." and about the FDR "Les enregistreurs ont fait appara'tre une diminution rapide de puissance sur les deux moteurs au cours de l’approche, ainsi que l’arrêt de ces moteurs, mais l’explication de ces éléments reste à être déterminée. Toute hypothèse, à ce stade, ne serait que de la spéculation."
Translation:
1. "The inspection of the crash site and the wreckage … has now been concluded. From this it can be determined that both engines didn’t deliver any power at the moment of impact with the ground.”
and:
2 “The FDR indicates a rapid loss of power on both engines during approach plus a complete engine shut down but an explanation for this remains to be found. At this stage any hypothesis would be pure speculation.

So far officially no possible cause has been ruled out except for terrorism.

However, there aren’t that many possible causes for total engine failures. There seems to have been enough fuel on board as the taxi driver who was the first on site reported that “there was fuel everywhere”. Mechanical would be a quite unlikely coincidence. Leaves bird strike and in my opinion more likely in view of the weather: icing. I’m not familiar with the F50. Can a F50 driver tell us something about its engine anti-ice system?

Greetings
BeePee

411A

Fuel contamination perhaps? Has happened before on jet aircraft.

BeePee

Yep, that's a possibility.

Just watched the local news and they said that there were no traces of birds found on the wreckage – so it wasn’t a bird strike either.

Mr. Heinzmann, Luxair’s CEO, said that the pilot was still in coma and a hospital spokesperson said that the pilot was awake and had spoken with the authorities. Guess we will here some more soon.

The surviving passenger is getting a lot better and will probably be able to leave hospital Monday or Tuesday. First good news!

Greetings
BeePee

Superpilut

I flew the F50 until last year and I can recall the anti-ice system should do the job well enough in icing conditions, especially since the acft was not continuously in IMC (top of the cloud deck should have been around 4000 ft apparently).
If you are prolonged in icing you might encounter vibration on the props, but there are enough ways to get rid of that. So if the system was working ok, there should not be any trouble coming from the icing side to explain a double engine flame-out.
Hope that helps BeePee.

9gmax

what if anti-ice was NOT selected ON during entry into cloudlayer - ice must have formed -
if anti-ice is then selected ON once ice has formed it can result in engine flame-out....
possible isn't ?
[just thinking loudly...]

Superpilut

yep, but you would say it's such a routine for these pilots they select it almost automatically...

FlyByHeart

Since one engine might have been shut down (acording to FDR) - we could be dealing with an enginefailure, followed by shut down of the wrong engine (seen before).

Superpilut

But how does the relight sequence work again? Don't you have to shut the fuel lever before restarting?
This to explain the shutdown...
just a thought.

BeePee

@ Superpilut,

Thanks for the quick answer. What kind of system is it? Bleed-air like on normal jet-engines or is it electric like on some light twins. Could an overlooked electric problem cause the anti-ice to fail?

I've re-read the official statement. Although it doesn’t specifically state that both engines quit simultaneously, I still kinda got the impression that’s what they meant. So if they both quit together I would focus on icing. Ground temp was 4º, thus a few thousand feet in freezing stratus with anti-ice problems could do it.

Well, just pure speculation on my behalf.

Greetings
BeePee

Grotehaasje

F50 has PW engines which utilise electrical anti icing.

Condolences to those involved.