BBC Concorde Incompetence
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Quote:
"The engine failure, which happened two hours into the flight, was due to an engine fault that is not specific to Concorde, an Air France spokeswoman told BBC News Online"
So if this is true, what else flies with Olympus engines then?
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.........Shall I stick to Bizjets???................................
"The engine failure, which happened two hours into the flight, was due to an engine fault that is not specific to Concorde, an Air France spokeswoman told BBC News Online"
So if this is true, what else flies with Olympus engines then?
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.........Shall I stick to Bizjets???................................
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Vulcan B1?
Let me get this right - last Monday and AirFrance Concorde had an IFS - Last sunday a BA Concorde had an IFS and last wednesday another BA Concorde had to slow down to to a fault with the windows.
As there are only around 13 aircraft flying this doesn't seem like a very reliable aircraft at the moment. Does anyone know how the despatch reliability of the Concorde fleet compares with other types?.
As for the original report about the SLF panicking - well what do you expect, they were French.
Let me get this right - last Monday and AirFrance Concorde had an IFS - Last sunday a BA Concorde had an IFS and last wednesday another BA Concorde had to slow down to to a fault with the windows.
As there are only around 13 aircraft flying this doesn't seem like a very reliable aircraft at the moment. Does anyone know how the despatch reliability of the Concorde fleet compares with other types?.
As for the original report about the SLF panicking - well what do you expect, they were French.
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Olympus Engines..
LGW Vulture...
The Navies (sp?) of the Netherlands, UK, France and Belgium use the RR Olympus engine in their vessels. Perhaps there is a nut or bolt common to the two engines!
rgds
CM
The Navies (sp?) of the Netherlands, UK, France and Belgium use the RR Olympus engine in their vessels. Perhaps there is a nut or bolt common to the two engines!
rgds
CM
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The problem is that most flights these days are so uneventful that whan something unusual happens passengers get scared easily.
I remember when I was about 7 years old (30 years ago gulp) a flight to the Channel Islands that was so turbulant that glasses hit the overhead lockers. These days aircraft fly higher and seem better able to handle the turbulance. Much quieter too.
I remember when I was about 7 years old (30 years ago gulp) a flight to the Channel Islands that was so turbulant that glasses hit the overhead lockers. These days aircraft fly higher and seem better able to handle the turbulance. Much quieter too.
Still behind the curtain
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The AF Concorde incident, as far as reporters are concerned, is very easily explainable. With Concorde's historic crash in France, any tiny thing now going wrong with the plane will be reported.
As a former reporter, what I take exception to is how it is being reported. Back in my day when I worked for a well-known news agency called UPI, we had an aviation reporter by the name of Bob Serling, brother of Rod Serling, the creator of Twilight Zone.
Bob new everything there was to know about flying and airplanes. In fact he wrote the factual book, "The Electra Story," and a novel, "The President's Plane Is Missing," which was later made into a movie.
During those days at UPI in Washington very little went through the copy editor's desk that Serling had not personally approved.
Being a former pilot, myself, I sympathize with you.
A pilot, like an engineer, has to be precise -- very precise -- in what he/she is doing and taking all facts into consideration. With the AF Concorde going down from 50,000 something feet to 30,000 something feet, was probably by the book in this kind of incident.
Unfortunately, many reporters out there today are not specialists, but rather generalists and they could not tell an Airbuss from a Boeing. That's problem number one.
Problem number two is that airline companies, in this instance AF, tend to clam up when an incident like this happens. God knows, they pay their PR people on staff, plus PR greasers on the outside hundreds of thousand of dollars/euros to keep a smile on the airline's face. In many cases, they have failed to do this, including this incident.
Damage control should have been the first one out with a statement that this is normal procedure in this sort of incident. Sure, there is news in an engine out story, especially on the Concorde, but it could have been just that.
As a former reporter, what I take exception to is how it is being reported. Back in my day when I worked for a well-known news agency called UPI, we had an aviation reporter by the name of Bob Serling, brother of Rod Serling, the creator of Twilight Zone.
Bob new everything there was to know about flying and airplanes. In fact he wrote the factual book, "The Electra Story," and a novel, "The President's Plane Is Missing," which was later made into a movie.
During those days at UPI in Washington very little went through the copy editor's desk that Serling had not personally approved.
Being a former pilot, myself, I sympathize with you.
A pilot, like an engineer, has to be precise -- very precise -- in what he/she is doing and taking all facts into consideration. With the AF Concorde going down from 50,000 something feet to 30,000 something feet, was probably by the book in this kind of incident.
Unfortunately, many reporters out there today are not specialists, but rather generalists and they could not tell an Airbuss from a Boeing. That's problem number one.
Problem number two is that airline companies, in this instance AF, tend to clam up when an incident like this happens. God knows, they pay their PR people on staff, plus PR greasers on the outside hundreds of thousand of dollars/euros to keep a smile on the airline's face. In many cases, they have failed to do this, including this incident.
Damage control should have been the first one out with a statement that this is normal procedure in this sort of incident. Sure, there is news in an engine out story, especially on the Concorde, but it could have been just that.
Jolly Green Giant
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I think some people may be missing the point here. The fact is Concorde has had anumber of incidents in recent times. For such a tiny fleet, I would say it is unacceptable. How many concordes are in operation today? 8, 9? How many flights are there daily? 3, 4?
Someone mentioned a 744 incident, how many 744 flights take place on a daily basis?
It seems to me that concorde has a far higher propensity for serious incidents then other commercial jets. You might say that's because of the complex nature of the aircraft, but I would imagine the airworthiness officers at the CAA and their french colleagues will be nervously looking at this trend.
Maybe someone can come up with the facts and prove me wrong.
Someone mentioned a 744 incident, how many 744 flights take place on a daily basis?
It seems to me that concorde has a far higher propensity for serious incidents then other commercial jets. You might say that's because of the complex nature of the aircraft, but I would imagine the airworthiness officers at the CAA and their french colleagues will be nervously looking at this trend.
Maybe someone can come up with the facts and prove me wrong.
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OneWorld22 is right. concorde is not just another airliner. It holds a special place in the hearts of aviation enthusiasts and joe-public too. And when anything goes wrong it is news. Maybe the journalism was a bit OTT but it's still worth reporting.
Carlito
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We live in the age of 24 hour news, sadly this means that reporters of both TV and Newspapers need to find something to write about to fill the column inches and our TV screens. This in my experience leads to a lot of speculation and poor reporting and this does not just apply to aviation stories.
I am reminded of the crash in New York last year of the A300 series aircraft, Sky News rolled out their so called aviation expert and a lot of fancy graphics. The so called aviation expert tried to explain how this "first generation fly-by-wire aircraft" may have come to grief over and over again! Need I say more.
Reporters are word smiths not necessarily experts on the subjects they report, the good ones do research and check their facts. Sadly there are fewer good reporters around it seems. They are also no doubt under pressure from their employers to fill the endless hours and column inches to satisfy our thirst for news. It seems these days investigations and prosecutions are carried out by the press in the public arena rather than the courts, at least from Joe publics point of view.
This story on the BA Concorde flight is another example of poor reporting by some hack under pressure, who has little knowledge of the subject he/she is dealing with and has not checked his/her facts.
To those good reporters out there I am sorry if this sounds like an attack on all in your profession, it is not intended as such. The News media performs an essential role in a free society and perhaps we have to accept that often the standard of reporting is not very high.
As to the safety of Concorde, I have never had the privilege of flying this fine piece of our aviation heritage, nor am I an expert in statistics relating to aircraft accidents. However, it seems to me this aircrafts operateing enviroment is more extreme than any subsonic aircraft and it would seem reasonable that there is a higher risk of a mechanical failure as a result. So perhaps it is not reasonable to compare it with say a 747 for example, just a thought!
I am reminded of the crash in New York last year of the A300 series aircraft, Sky News rolled out their so called aviation expert and a lot of fancy graphics. The so called aviation expert tried to explain how this "first generation fly-by-wire aircraft" may have come to grief over and over again! Need I say more.
Reporters are word smiths not necessarily experts on the subjects they report, the good ones do research and check their facts. Sadly there are fewer good reporters around it seems. They are also no doubt under pressure from their employers to fill the endless hours and column inches to satisfy our thirst for news. It seems these days investigations and prosecutions are carried out by the press in the public arena rather than the courts, at least from Joe publics point of view.
This story on the BA Concorde flight is another example of poor reporting by some hack under pressure, who has little knowledge of the subject he/she is dealing with and has not checked his/her facts.
To those good reporters out there I am sorry if this sounds like an attack on all in your profession, it is not intended as such. The News media performs an essential role in a free society and perhaps we have to accept that often the standard of reporting is not very high.
As to the safety of Concorde, I have never had the privilege of flying this fine piece of our aviation heritage, nor am I an expert in statistics relating to aircraft accidents. However, it seems to me this aircrafts operateing enviroment is more extreme than any subsonic aircraft and it would seem reasonable that there is a higher risk of a mechanical failure as a result. So perhaps it is not reasonable to compare it with say a 747 for example, just a thought!
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OneWorld22, so out of the 747-400's around the world do we get to hear about any of these incidents that will happen daily on such a large fleet.................no.
So how can we make comparisons.
I fly an aircraft type that has regular probs that are managed by the crew and we carry on . There are probably 100 odd of this type flying and I bet there are 10 such incidents a day on this fleet that go unreported. As opposed to Concordes' reporting any little sniff or sneeze as if its a major disaster. That makes Concorde statistically look worse than the world average for fleet types.
It's all B**LS**T this reporting lark.
The BEEB called the Luxair F50 accident a regional jet last night! God if only we could say that on our PA's to pax, perhaps they would not notice the big prop thing wizzing around outside. We know its really a jet inside but it ain't called such.
Here's an example of reporting.
There was the BWIA L1011 aircraft that aborted its takeoff the other day at Manchester. Now I only heard about it from this wee website. The L1011 is of the same vintage as Concorde. I bet if Concorde aborted at Heathrow it would cause quite a stirr. I would imagine that many Tristar mishaps go un-noticed. and yes there are probably around 80 odd still flying around somewhere. But then it ain't Concorde. If we had the stats compared to aircraft movements then we could compare.
I say give the old lady a rest.............she is the only thing we, the world has at the moment, lets be proud and let her keep providing the service that she deserves to give.
So how can we make comparisons.
I fly an aircraft type that has regular probs that are managed by the crew and we carry on . There are probably 100 odd of this type flying and I bet there are 10 such incidents a day on this fleet that go unreported. As opposed to Concordes' reporting any little sniff or sneeze as if its a major disaster. That makes Concorde statistically look worse than the world average for fleet types.
It's all B**LS**T this reporting lark.
The BEEB called the Luxair F50 accident a regional jet last night! God if only we could say that on our PA's to pax, perhaps they would not notice the big prop thing wizzing around outside. We know its really a jet inside but it ain't called such.
Here's an example of reporting.
There was the BWIA L1011 aircraft that aborted its takeoff the other day at Manchester. Now I only heard about it from this wee website. The L1011 is of the same vintage as Concorde. I bet if Concorde aborted at Heathrow it would cause quite a stirr. I would imagine that many Tristar mishaps go un-noticed. and yes there are probably around 80 odd still flying around somewhere. But then it ain't Concorde. If we had the stats compared to aircraft movements then we could compare.
I say give the old lady a rest.............she is the only thing we, the world has at the moment, lets be proud and let her keep providing the service that she deserves to give.
Jolly Green Giant
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Hey guys, you didn't read what I said, I'm asking for the stats. I mean how many BA 744 flights alone are there daily? How many SQ flights? And how many serious incidents occur?
I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I accept that concorde operates in a unique way and I dare say that the concorde line maintenance guys are busier then most and probably have a nice juicy tech log to get through at LHR each day.
I flew the DC-8, 727, L1011 and 747-200/747-400. All aircraft of course have their problems, some are particular to the aircraft type, but, thanks to the redundancy built in we just get on with it.
But would the airworthiness officials say that because concorde is special that increased incidents are acceptable compared to other aircraft? Again I don't know that's why I'm asking.
Anyone have some good old facts?
I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I accept that concorde operates in a unique way and I dare say that the concorde line maintenance guys are busier then most and probably have a nice juicy tech log to get through at LHR each day.
I flew the DC-8, 727, L1011 and 747-200/747-400. All aircraft of course have their problems, some are particular to the aircraft type, but, thanks to the redundancy built in we just get on with it.
But would the airworthiness officials say that because concorde is special that increased incidents are acceptable compared to other aircraft? Again I don't know that's why I'm asking.
Anyone have some good old facts?
Concorde Dispatch Reliability
From a purely non-involved bystanders point of view I would say BA's Concorde's have a pretty high dispatch reliability.
My office is in Teddington in SW London and when LHR are using 09 (which has been the case a lot this summer), the big beautiful bird turns right over here about 10.55 local every morning with about 90-95% regularity. If you don't see it, you sure as hell hear it.
I can't get that good in the PA-28.
It's a fantastic bird and one of a kind .... I hate all this knocking coz I wanna be able to see it go by for a lot of years yet.
My office is in Teddington in SW London and when LHR are using 09 (which has been the case a lot this summer), the big beautiful bird turns right over here about 10.55 local every morning with about 90-95% regularity. If you don't see it, you sure as hell hear it.
I can't get that good in the PA-28.
It's a fantastic bird and one of a kind .... I hate all this knocking coz I wanna be able to see it go by for a lot of years yet.
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Face it, these incidents are gonna keep cropping up until BA and AF decide Concorde's too old and creaky to be pushed around (or it runs out of spares...) and put it in a museum.
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One of the more commendable developments of 'reactionary news' is that more and more newspapers are publishing the contact details of the person writing the story.
For example, the Daily Mirror's "Concorde is OK say chiefs" article was written by their business editor, Clinton Manning.....and the paper version (not the online for some reason) carried his email address as a footnote.
So, if you really feel strongly about his writing, why not politely set him straight? If he's a good journo (and there are some who frequent these boards) he'll take on board your comments and adjust his future writing accordingly.
Oh and the article is here .
For example, the Daily Mirror's "Concorde is OK say chiefs" article was written by their business editor, Clinton Manning.....and the paper version (not the online for some reason) carried his email address as a footnote.
So, if you really feel strongly about his writing, why not politely set him straight? If he's a good journo (and there are some who frequent these boards) he'll take on board your comments and adjust his future writing accordingly.
Oh and the article is here .
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Which brings me back to a point I made on another thread, beware of what you post on these forums. Some reporters may treat some of the rumour and speculation as well informed fact!
It would not be the first time I have seen Newspaper reports that sound very like comments made on these forums! I remember not that long ago the Times referring to reports on a pilots forum.
Pprune is great fun and a good way to exchange views and information but there are no controls on who has access to the open forums. Uninformed comment could be taken out of context or worse treated as fact and be very damaging at times.
Sorry to be a party pooper, it's a free country, but I felt it needed saying.
It would not be the first time I have seen Newspaper reports that sound very like comments made on these forums! I remember not that long ago the Times referring to reports on a pilots forum.
Pprune is great fun and a good way to exchange views and information but there are no controls on who has access to the open forums. Uninformed comment could be taken out of context or worse treated as fact and be very damaging at times.
Sorry to be a party pooper, it's a free country, but I felt it needed saying.
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amanof....
Any of you guys actually fly Concorde or were on the flight in question to substentiate your argument that it was a non-event?
3-engine decel & descent procedure is: Exactly the same. Marginally faster deceleration with 3 engines at 18 degrees TLA and one shut down - but not so you'd notice. And still more engines than a 777. And almost 100 mph faster.
2-engine decel & descent procedure: Exactly the same. Slightly lower subsonic cruise altitude for endurance and Mach=0.8. Faster than an A320 and the same number of engines.
No drama. No fuss. Reduced range due reduced efficiency subsonic may require diversion depending on the stage of flight (before halfway probably best to pop back to LHR and get another Concorde - good chance of still beating the 747 and yes, rebates are given depending on the exact details of the disruption - terms and conditions apply, please read details on the contract, if you're under 16 please get parent / guardian permission etc etc)
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Concorde slagging
It must have been just like the scene from Airport 80 the Concorde........not
The statement below from the AF official is somewhat cotradictory bearing in mind nothing in the air these days uses an Olympus engine and IS therefore Concorde related
"The engine failure, which happened two hours into the flight, was due to an engine fault that is not specific to Concorde, an Air France spokeswoman told BBC News Online.
A fin that limited air flow into the turbine had broken, she said, causing vibrations which prompted the pilot to shut down the engine and complete the flight at subsonic speed. "
I Didnt know you could take the "fin that limited the airflow" off an Olympus and shove it on a Trent....
I assume the "fin" mentioned is part of the regulation of the air into the engine and to my mind IS concorde related.
I cant see what the fuss is all about, engines are shut down all the time . Give the plane a break and concentrate on filling your newspapers with something more newsworthy....
what next...Man in PA28 tyre creep sensation
The statement below from the AF official is somewhat cotradictory bearing in mind nothing in the air these days uses an Olympus engine and IS therefore Concorde related
"The engine failure, which happened two hours into the flight, was due to an engine fault that is not specific to Concorde, an Air France spokeswoman told BBC News Online.
A fin that limited air flow into the turbine had broken, she said, causing vibrations which prompted the pilot to shut down the engine and complete the flight at subsonic speed. "
I Didnt know you could take the "fin that limited the airflow" off an Olympus and shove it on a Trent....
I assume the "fin" mentioned is part of the regulation of the air into the engine and to my mind IS concorde related.
I cant see what the fuss is all about, engines are shut down all the time . Give the plane a break and concentrate on filling your newspapers with something more newsworthy....
what next...Man in PA28 tyre creep sensation
Jolly Green Giant
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Is the "fin" she's talking about the ramps at the front of the engine that move in flight when supersonic to slow the airflow entering the engine? Anyone have detailed knowledge of this?
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inflammable and flammable.
whats the difference between flammable and inflammable? yes youve got it they're both the same. petrol for example is inflammable and its explosive so an inflammable explosive is not an oxymoron!
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BBC/Concorde
Some years before the Paris Concorde tragedy, a very similar incident occurred at JFK. The fuel tank was punctured by debris thrown up from the u/c. Mercifully the mist didn't ignite and the a/c returned safely.
If the BBC/Mirror/Times whatever had run an article saying how close this had been to a tragedy what would the worthies of pprune had said. They would have dismissed it as speculation.
But that may have saved lives.
If the BBC/Mirror/Times whatever had run an article saying how close this had been to a tragedy what would the worthies of pprune had said. They would have dismissed it as speculation.
But that may have saved lives.