Incident at BHX - 29 Oct 02
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I can just imagine Fleet Captains interviewing their "young commanders" for ignoring ATC at BHX:
"I ignored the instructions cos I remember wiley ole 411A's comments numerous years ago!
Come on 411A, Tristar equipment? Is your memory adeqautely equipped to remember such times??
p.s. Mmmm. Tristars....you could get a job with NDR.....if you're not careful!!!!
"I ignored the instructions cos I remember wiley ole 411A's comments numerous years ago!
Come on 411A, Tristar equipment? Is your memory adeqautely equipped to remember such times??
p.s. Mmmm. Tristars....you could get a job with NDR.....if you're not careful!!!!
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I have to admit the closest I've ever come to going off the end of a rwy is at BHX in a 146. Captains landing spot on in the right place right speed etc etc, and asked to keep the speed up to vacate off Rwy15. VERY slippery indeed in the wet at that end and the antiskid was doing it's stuff. Could have been very embarrasing. Beware, I for one now slow down in good time at the end of 15. Surprised it hasn't happend before.
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Well then LGWVulture assuming, (for the point of discussion) that you really are a Commander (yeah I know, a stretch), who is in charge of the aeroplane assigned to and signed for by you...you OR the ATC controller?
If you don't know, you certainly have no business at the pointy end.
If you don't know, you certainly have no business at the pointy end.
the lunatic fringe
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411A is correct.
If ATC want you off the runway, and you are not happy with the situation, You go at your own pace. Simple as that.
More than that, every Chief Pilot, and Fleet Captain I have ever worked for would back that position up.
13 years based at BHX, and the far end of 15 is nasty when wet. ATC know it, and usually give you room to slowly make the exit. If the guy behind me has to go-around, well bad luck. Better that than going off the end. Then the Fleet Captain is going to give me a hard time.
L337.
If ATC want you off the runway, and you are not happy with the situation, You go at your own pace. Simple as that.
More than that, every Chief Pilot, and Fleet Captain I have ever worked for would back that position up.
13 years based at BHX, and the far end of 15 is nasty when wet. ATC know it, and usually give you room to slowly make the exit. If the guy behind me has to go-around, well bad luck. Better that than going off the end. Then the Fleet Captain is going to give me a hard time.
L337.
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I operate into BHX most days, and agree with most comments about the slippery nature of the 15 stopend. Trying to do the right thing and keep runway occupancy down to a minimum does lead to faster than normal taxispeeds, turning off at the end of 15 at anything other than a crawl when it's wet, can leave you feeling somewhat out of control.
I would advise anyone who has had an experience where their heart has been in their mouth wondering if they are actually going to be able to make that left turn at the end, to file an ASR and tick the MOR box (assuming that your reporting forms are the same as ours). A few reports in the CAA's in trays will probably get something done about it ( if there is nothing in the pipeline already).
They are impressive furrows in the grass there, I must say !!.
I would advise anyone who has had an experience where their heart has been in their mouth wondering if they are actually going to be able to make that left turn at the end, to file an ASR and tick the MOR box (assuming that your reporting forms are the same as ours). A few reports in the CAA's in trays will probably get something done about it ( if there is nothing in the pipeline already).
They are impressive furrows in the grass there, I must say !!.
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Without a doupt this incident will have the yellow-jacketed, Nanny state, job's worths of Birminghams management team running round yelling into walkie takies and closing taxyway's and about a third of the main r/w!
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Just as well we are able to land short in our quadra puff and exit up 24.
Provided ATC let us of course.
The BHX Icerink should be relocated to the NEC/NIA and no longer remain at the threshold of 33.
Provided ATC let us of course.
The BHX Icerink should be relocated to the NEC/NIA and no longer remain at the threshold of 33.
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Its the worst possible combination of a light aircraft and slippery runway, with plenty of residual thrust on those big motors.
I remember donkeys years ago in Newcastle, when a B727 positioning empty back to Manchester, slid off the contaminated taxiway. Red faces all around particularly when the same crew and aircraft repeated the entire scenario the following day, with exactly the same result. The airport director was pulling his hair out and jumping up and down, despite the fact that if they had cleared the rutted ice properly, it wouldn't have happened in the first place. The poor old training captain was dispatched to LGW for a spanking.
I remember donkeys years ago in Newcastle, when a B727 positioning empty back to Manchester, slid off the contaminated taxiway. Red faces all around particularly when the same crew and aircraft repeated the entire scenario the following day, with exactly the same result. The airport director was pulling his hair out and jumping up and down, despite the fact that if they had cleared the rutted ice properly, it wouldn't have happened in the first place. The poor old training captain was dispatched to LGW for a spanking.
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This thread seams to be predominately concerned with taxiing "expeditiously".
The concrete at the end of 15 at BHX is SO slippery when wet that EVEN at a WALKING PACE, control of the aircraft can be lost. I know, it happened to me, only max reverse stopped us sliding onto the grass....just, and I mean just.
We filed an ASR and thats the last I heard of it.
It is unacceptable that Birminghams Airport Authorities rely on local knowledge to stop accidents happening. The runway is unsafe and they should tell everyone that it is, until they spend the money to make it safe.
How about "Very Slippery When Wet" being promulgated by NOTAM until it is promulgated on the airfields charts?
ps Don't tell anyone, it's a secret.
The concrete at the end of 15 at BHX is SO slippery when wet that EVEN at a WALKING PACE, control of the aircraft can be lost. I know, it happened to me, only max reverse stopped us sliding onto the grass....just, and I mean just.
We filed an ASR and thats the last I heard of it.
It is unacceptable that Birminghams Airport Authorities rely on local knowledge to stop accidents happening. The runway is unsafe and they should tell everyone that it is, until they spend the money to make it safe.
How about "Very Slippery When Wet" being promulgated by NOTAM until it is promulgated on the airfields charts?
ps Don't tell anyone, it's a secret.
Can only concur with those who have sympathy with the 767 crew who were not 'BHX regulars' and would not have been aware of the slippy concrete bit ( very technical language I know).
BHX has become a shambles over the last couple of years - nice
big piers for Emirates that re-created another cul-de-sac which
further delays push-backs and arrivals on stand ! Just how much
time and money is wasted tugging BA/Maersk aircraft around the
airfield every night ? Buses to de-plane pax which are adjacent
to the baggage reclaim area - yes I know its all to do with inbound and outbound pax not mixing but then again that does not appear to be a consideration at GLA/DUB/LGW to name but three.
So lets be both honest and radical.
1. Second runway - no chance.
2. New airport at Rugby - ditto.
3. Bin GA/Freight - off to Coventry please.
4. New low-cost terminal on old terminal site - yes Ryanair/Travel Lite - thats you.
5. RET for 15 if physically possible.
6. Shoot that bloody heron which sits just off the 15 threshold.
7. Use 06/24 for something useful - have'nt seen anything bigger
than a light single use it for ages.
8. Either get the monorail working or bin it.
9. Build a staff bus shelter for those who use the main terminal.
10. Oh yes more celebrities for the Alpha sale - why stop at Lulu - why not John Leslie/ Angus Deayton/ Graham Taylor/ Doug Ellis -
............................................................ ............................
BHX has become a shambles over the last couple of years - nice
big piers for Emirates that re-created another cul-de-sac which
further delays push-backs and arrivals on stand ! Just how much
time and money is wasted tugging BA/Maersk aircraft around the
airfield every night ? Buses to de-plane pax which are adjacent
to the baggage reclaim area - yes I know its all to do with inbound and outbound pax not mixing but then again that does not appear to be a consideration at GLA/DUB/LGW to name but three.
So lets be both honest and radical.
1. Second runway - no chance.
2. New airport at Rugby - ditto.
3. Bin GA/Freight - off to Coventry please.
4. New low-cost terminal on old terminal site - yes Ryanair/Travel Lite - thats you.
5. RET for 15 if physically possible.
6. Shoot that bloody heron which sits just off the 15 threshold.
7. Use 06/24 for something useful - have'nt seen anything bigger
than a light single use it for ages.
8. Either get the monorail working or bin it.
9. Build a staff bus shelter for those who use the main terminal.
10. Oh yes more celebrities for the Alpha sale - why stop at Lulu - why not John Leslie/ Angus Deayton/ Graham Taylor/ Doug Ellis -
............................................................ ............................
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This thread has now made it onto the front page of the 'Sunday Mercury', a local down-market Sunday tabloid ( I buy it for the football) with the huge headline'
'PILOT WARNS OF BRUM AIRPORT DISASTER'
(alongside a teaser, 'Corrie star offered me sex')
In addition to the contents of the sawn-off web version, below, the two page expose goes on to quote extensively from postings on this site and from a PALPA spokesman who says that thay will ask their technical staff 'to examine any problems on Monday...We take these reports extremely seriously and we will be looking into them straight away.'
A BHX spokesman declined to comment except to say that, 'We fully comply with all CAA requirements.
http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/...l&siteid=50002
'PILOT WARNS OF BRUM AIRPORT DISASTER'
(alongside a teaser, 'Corrie star offered me sex')
In addition to the contents of the sawn-off web version, below, the two page expose goes on to quote extensively from postings on this site and from a PALPA spokesman who says that thay will ask their technical staff 'to examine any problems on Monday...We take these reports extremely seriously and we will be looking into them straight away.'
A BHX spokesman declined to comment except to say that, 'We fully comply with all CAA requirements.
http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/...l&siteid=50002
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What does the executive jet "exploding" on takeoff have to do with the price of fish? That paragraph really has nothing to do with the rest of the "factual" report.
I didn't know ice on the wings caused aircraft to explode on takeoff!!
I'll stick to flying during the summer then.
I didn't know ice on the wings caused aircraft to explode on takeoff!!
I'll stick to flying during the summer then.
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For those of you unfamiliar with BHX ...
here's an idea of what they're talking about ...
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/292441/M/
here's an idea of what they're talking about ...
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/292441/M/
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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I understand that the AAIB have found that full brakes were applied however there was a reduction in retardation. i.e. runway slippery when wet.
I presume that they will now do something like resurface with tarmacadam &/or grove it.
I presume that they will now do something like resurface with tarmacadam &/or grove it.
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At last. Notam:
R/W15-last 100m slippery when wet.
Well done BHX management, its only taken a near disaster plus countless weeks before you've admitted you've got a problem. Now get it Tarmaced.
R/W15-last 100m slippery when wet.
Well done BHX management, its only taken a near disaster plus countless weeks before you've admitted you've got a problem. Now get it Tarmaced.
