Mobile Phone Sends Jet Out Of Control
Brain fade, I saw it happen right in front of me. Jolly good luck to you if your plane is safe from interferance, though I would try to be a little more scientific when determining if a mobile affects the systems or not.
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This month's number of Popular Science magazine in US has a small article on some test work NASA did on one or more United 737s on the ramp with broadband radio emissions. Apparantly the broadband radio uses all kinds of frequenci4es and hops all over the place putting fundamental emissions and harmonics as well as whatever leaky IF gets out in frequencies used for transponders, ACAS/TCAS, and other supposidly protected bands.
US Federal Communications Commission appears to have approved the comemrcial broadband for 3GEN cell phones etc and must see visions of spectrum auctions dancing in it's head but does not appear concerned with effects on safety. The industry pooh poohs any concern also (big suprise).
US Federal Communications Commission appears to have approved the comemrcial broadband for 3GEN cell phones etc and must see visions of spectrum auctions dancing in it's head but does not appear concerned with effects on safety. The industry pooh poohs any concern also (big suprise).
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Last week on approach to EDI very short final, the aircraft moved left 30 degrees + off the localiser and dropped below glidepath purposely and smoothly. Captain and I after disbelief seconds recovered the situation PDQ but had we been in IMC and not good VM as we were, a certain go around. Hostie then advises us afterwards that a mobile had started ringing after the wheels were down but not exactly sure where on the approach.
Neither of us were sure if we had heard the usual buzzing in our headphones, but taking no chances have given full report to safety who have subsequently reinforced throughout the company the "switch the mobile off" speech and stamping it out from the FD if we hear anything in future.
The scarey thing was the way it looked as though one of us had just decided to turn off the path. I suppose thinking about mobile interference I might have expected the systems to disengage or jolt somewhat with the usual cavalry charge lights flashing warnings but it didn't. It just seemed to set a new course........one to watch
Neither of us were sure if we had heard the usual buzzing in our headphones, but taking no chances have given full report to safety who have subsequently reinforced throughout the company the "switch the mobile off" speech and stamping it out from the FD if we hear anything in future.
The scarey thing was the way it looked as though one of us had just decided to turn off the path. I suppose thinking about mobile interference I might have expected the systems to disengage or jolt somewhat with the usual cavalry charge lights flashing warnings but it didn't. It just seemed to set a new course........one to watch
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Found this on another forum dated 8th November - has anyone else heard about this 'incident'? (Spelling uncorrected)
I just thought I would share with you my interesting experience this evening.
I am a frequent traveller with xxx commuting to Belfast Aldergrove,
Edinburgh and Glasgow a couple of times a month and over the past 12 months
have never experienced any problems what so ever, however tonight was very
different.
We took of from Belfast as normal 35 min journey back into Liverpool. On
approach into Liverpool the "fun" started, it was very bumpy and the plane
was swaying from left to write (quite concerning). The pilot then came over
the intercom stating "could you switch your mobile phone off". The plane
then made a sharp turn to the right, I honestly thought the pilot was going
to roll the aircraft however he seemed to straighten the aircraft up and
managed to land. When we landed the pilot said "please stay seated when we
reach the terminal building and the engines have been switched off there
is something I need to tell you". Anyway to cut a very long story short he
told us that we had encountered a serious incident, we just missed the power
station hence the sharp turn to the right. He then came out of the cockpit
left the plane for a couple of minutes then re entered with 2 police officers,
they went straight to the culprit who had turned the phone on and arrested
him (I have not got a clue how they new it was him)..................what
an idiot!!!!
I am a frequent traveller with xxx commuting to Belfast Aldergrove,
Edinburgh and Glasgow a couple of times a month and over the past 12 months
have never experienced any problems what so ever, however tonight was very
different.
We took of from Belfast as normal 35 min journey back into Liverpool. On
approach into Liverpool the "fun" started, it was very bumpy and the plane
was swaying from left to write (quite concerning). The pilot then came over
the intercom stating "could you switch your mobile phone off". The plane
then made a sharp turn to the right, I honestly thought the pilot was going
to roll the aircraft however he seemed to straighten the aircraft up and
managed to land. When we landed the pilot said "please stay seated when we
reach the terminal building and the engines have been switched off there
is something I need to tell you". Anyway to cut a very long story short he
told us that we had encountered a serious incident, we just missed the power
station hence the sharp turn to the right. He then came out of the cockpit
left the plane for a couple of minutes then re entered with 2 police officers,
they went straight to the culprit who had turned the phone on and arrested
him (I have not got a clue how they new it was him)..................what
an idiot!!!!
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In the US, the FAA and FCC is supposidly considering allowing the use of cell phones in the air. The problem, accoring to "them" appears primarily with airborne phones accessing more than one ground station, causing thus clogging up the cellular phone system. There's a fix for this they claim . . . . FWIW.
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Some Factual Experience
ATC COMMS
In our ATC centre the comms are all digital interface with TID selection. When a GSM (mobile) is left on in the centre (against local orders I might add) the phone when it searches, or for a worst example actually rings...WILL block our frequency and transmits the electrical interference sound you here when your phone is near car radio's/CD Players/Speakers etc. To that end a supressor has been installed to jam the signals of peoples phones. Additionally when a pilot transmits to ATC and there is GSM in the flight deck searching etc. we receive the interference at our end. If you have ever placed your phone next to the PC when it goes off, just watch the screen go bezerk. Still some unknowns with these little puppies I think.
In our ATC centre the comms are all digital interface with TID selection. When a GSM (mobile) is left on in the centre (against local orders I might add) the phone when it searches, or for a worst example actually rings...WILL block our frequency and transmits the electrical interference sound you here when your phone is near car radio's/CD Players/Speakers etc. To that end a supressor has been installed to jam the signals of peoples phones. Additionally when a pilot transmits to ATC and there is GSM in the flight deck searching etc. we receive the interference at our end. If you have ever placed your phone next to the PC when it goes off, just watch the screen go bezerk. Still some unknowns with these little puppies I think.
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I think it would be a very brave company (or body) that outlawed phones on flights, most of the population own them!
And there goes the business traveller if he cant take his mobile brain tumour unit with him on his flight. Net-meeting, e-mail, fax, Conference lines and the like are all taking a bite at the flying cherry (no matter what the adverts say regarding face to face business).
Along the lines of a similair thread, I do beleive it is quite easy to block the phone's signal using a thin sheet of aluminium (similair to baking foil, sprinkled with fairy dust or some other technology!!) but who pays to upgrade the a/c? Vodafone, Orange etc?. OR....
There goes the pay-rise next year!!!!
One more thing, its been a year or so since I was on pprune..It really is quite a magnificent site. Well done boys and girls.
And there goes the business traveller if he cant take his mobile brain tumour unit with him on his flight. Net-meeting, e-mail, fax, Conference lines and the like are all taking a bite at the flying cherry (no matter what the adverts say regarding face to face business).
Along the lines of a similair thread, I do beleive it is quite easy to block the phone's signal using a thin sheet of aluminium (similair to baking foil, sprinkled with fairy dust or some other technology!!) but who pays to upgrade the a/c? Vodafone, Orange etc?. OR....
There goes the pay-rise next year!!!!
One more thing, its been a year or so since I was on pprune..It really is quite a magnificent site. Well done boys and girls.
I reckon that all the mobile's should be rounded up before the flight & put into a safe box, to ensure that they're turned off. Give the owner a ticket to make sure they get the right one back, etc.
Or just crush them in a vice, whatever ...
Or just crush them in a vice, whatever ...
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18W
Nice idea, but in practice, do you really think this is workable? "Well is was working when I gave it to you! You broke it, that £250 please!" "They're not having my phone I'll just hide it away." Remember the magority of the pax are fine but there are always wallies!
Nice idea, but in practice, do you really think this is workable? "Well is was working when I gave it to you! You broke it, that £250 please!" "They're not having my phone I'll just hide it away." Remember the magority of the pax are fine but there are always wallies!
None but a blockhead
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There's a lot of disinformation in this area, and not that many facts. However, Lufthansa has said that on average, one phone is left switched on on every flight it makes. I'd be surprised if that wasn't true for just about everyone. If there was a problem, it would have surfaced by now. And it would have been fixed -- you can have seat-mounted radiation detectors, crew-carried radiation detectors, small blocking transmitters in the cabin that prevent phones from working during flight, screening film on the windows... lots of options, none of them free but then since when is safety free?
In any case, you ain't seen nothing yet. As well as cellular radio services on four frequencies, there are 802.11, 802.11b, 802.11a, Zigbee (aka 802.15.4), Bluetooth, WirelessUSB, UWB (which is ALIEN TECHNOLOGY, I tell ya), cordless mice on 49, 433 and god knows what MHz... and that's off the top of my head. Some or all of the above is already part of those sleek silver gadgets called personal digital assitants, smartphones, pocket PCs, MP3 players or whatever, and more is on its way. I've seen an MP3 player that has a built in frequency-agile Band II broadcast FM transmitter (www.neurosaudio.com) to let you listen through your hifi or car stereo without wires. Band II broadcast FM is right next door to VOR frequencies... but it's just an MP3 player, right?
Not only will the cabin crew not be able to tell whether someone's using a transmitter during the flight, neither will the people using them. Every electronic gizmo, whether it's turned on or not and whether it looks as if it will radiate or not, will have the ability to wake up and spurt something into the ether, of its own accord.
That's next year. Intel, bless, is already talking about building broadband wireless networking into every chip it makes -- as in every processor, memory chip, pc glue chip, you name it -- because it's close to making this a zero-cost option. This won't be for a couple of years. Maybe five.
The battle -- to make the cabin an RF-free or RF-controlled environment -- has already been lost. The only option is to think defensively, identify problems before they become critical with existing equipment and to design for the actual environment. The days when only policemen and radio nerds had portable transmitters died in the 80s.
R
In any case, you ain't seen nothing yet. As well as cellular radio services on four frequencies, there are 802.11, 802.11b, 802.11a, Zigbee (aka 802.15.4), Bluetooth, WirelessUSB, UWB (which is ALIEN TECHNOLOGY, I tell ya), cordless mice on 49, 433 and god knows what MHz... and that's off the top of my head. Some or all of the above is already part of those sleek silver gadgets called personal digital assitants, smartphones, pocket PCs, MP3 players or whatever, and more is on its way. I've seen an MP3 player that has a built in frequency-agile Band II broadcast FM transmitter (www.neurosaudio.com) to let you listen through your hifi or car stereo without wires. Band II broadcast FM is right next door to VOR frequencies... but it's just an MP3 player, right?
Not only will the cabin crew not be able to tell whether someone's using a transmitter during the flight, neither will the people using them. Every electronic gizmo, whether it's turned on or not and whether it looks as if it will radiate or not, will have the ability to wake up and spurt something into the ether, of its own accord.
That's next year. Intel, bless, is already talking about building broadband wireless networking into every chip it makes -- as in every processor, memory chip, pc glue chip, you name it -- because it's close to making this a zero-cost option. This won't be for a couple of years. Maybe five.
The battle -- to make the cabin an RF-free or RF-controlled environment -- has already been lost. The only option is to think defensively, identify problems before they become critical with existing equipment and to design for the actual environment. The days when only policemen and radio nerds had portable transmitters died in the 80s.
R
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I hate vegetables. Recently, I found prrune running quite slowly, and on inspecting the fridge, what did I see? I threw them out and then rechecked prrune and it was faster. [sigh]
Last edited by paulo; 12th Nov 2002 at 22:47.
