Cockpit doors / access
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Cockpit doors / access
The atrocious acts of terrorism would not have happened if it had been impossible to access the flight deck. All the security measures you could dream up to search people at airports will not stop dangerous people boarding aircraft. I believe the passenger who nearly downed the British Airways Nairobi flight was completely unarmed. What you can do is deny them access to the flight deck. This would be the most effective single measure to prevent this disgusting act occurring ever again.
If banks can have security doors to prevent the theft of a few thousand pounds or dollars, surely we should have the same facility to prevent the theft of thousands of innocent lives.
It is time to reconsider the training that we receive in response to unlawful intervention of flights.
Commercial aircraft should not be used as weapons of mass destruction.
If banks can have security doors to prevent the theft of a few thousand pounds or dollars, surely we should have the same facility to prevent the theft of thousands of innocent lives.
It is time to reconsider the training that we receive in response to unlawful intervention of flights.
Commercial aircraft should not be used as weapons of mass destruction.
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
Please... get real. The way to prevent this is to stop these murderers getting on the a/c in the first place. Once they are on, whether a hijacker or just a stupid disruptive passenges the problem is compounded.
Do you propose we have a steel door with a time lock and a slot where a plate with some food can be passed through? Forget the slot, just leave us with a pack of rations.
This debate has been going on for years here on PPRuNe and the UK airlines have been slated for having cockpit access to visitors in a controlled way whereas the US airlines have a no cockpit access policy. That policy didn't stop this tragedy and no matter how thick you make that door you will always have someone able to coerce the flight deck crew to open it if they have a hostage and start threatening to harm them.
Up until a few days ago it was never even believed that a hijacker would turn his aircraft into a weapon of mass destruction without some sort of communication. Things will be very different from now on.
The only real way to prevent this ever happening again is to make sure that the intelligent services are in a position to gather enough information to pre-empt such attacks in the first place and make sure that security at ground level in airports is conducted in a much more professional manner.
Unfortunately, we reap the consequences of the never ending cost cutting by bean counters when it comes to services with no tangible return. Considering that many airport security workers are paid less than emloyees at McDonalds and receive the most basic and rudimentary training what can you expect.
SO many people moan about the price of a flight without thinking beyond their own comforts. AIr travel will have to become a more expensive mode of transport in the future if you want to lessen the chances of another atrocity. Sadly, too many people forget these tragedies far too quickly and begin complaining about the costs for what is often an invisible service.
The strengthening of the cockpit door is not the answer. Prevention of letting these murderers on board in the first place is paramount. Unfortunately we are now seeing the authorities in knee-jerk mode and the modification of airspace and the extra vigilance at airports can be associated with the words "bolted", "horse" and "stable door".
Do you propose we have a steel door with a time lock and a slot where a plate with some food can be passed through? Forget the slot, just leave us with a pack of rations.
This debate has been going on for years here on PPRuNe and the UK airlines have been slated for having cockpit access to visitors in a controlled way whereas the US airlines have a no cockpit access policy. That policy didn't stop this tragedy and no matter how thick you make that door you will always have someone able to coerce the flight deck crew to open it if they have a hostage and start threatening to harm them.
Up until a few days ago it was never even believed that a hijacker would turn his aircraft into a weapon of mass destruction without some sort of communication. Things will be very different from now on.
The only real way to prevent this ever happening again is to make sure that the intelligent services are in a position to gather enough information to pre-empt such attacks in the first place and make sure that security at ground level in airports is conducted in a much more professional manner.
Unfortunately, we reap the consequences of the never ending cost cutting by bean counters when it comes to services with no tangible return. Considering that many airport security workers are paid less than emloyees at McDonalds and receive the most basic and rudimentary training what can you expect.
SO many people moan about the price of a flight without thinking beyond their own comforts. AIr travel will have to become a more expensive mode of transport in the future if you want to lessen the chances of another atrocity. Sadly, too many people forget these tragedies far too quickly and begin complaining about the costs for what is often an invisible service.
The strengthening of the cockpit door is not the answer. Prevention of letting these murderers on board in the first place is paramount. Unfortunately we are now seeing the authorities in knee-jerk mode and the modification of airspace and the extra vigilance at airports can be associated with the words "bolted", "horse" and "stable door".
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Danny,
I don't often disagree with you, but in this case you are so wrong. Even in Prison, where prisoners are repeatedly strip searched and constantly contained in a sterile envirnment it is impossible to keep the knives out with which prisoners are always murdering each other.
There is no accounting for a small group of people bent on suicide. Now that it has been proven just how easy it really is, this could be done by a group of unarmed people with martial arts skills.
The answer will be to configure the aircraft similar to the 757 PF, where the forward door is for the cockpit, and then there is a solid barrier between the main deck and the cockpit. Access to the cockpit is going to have be from outside the aircraft only, with its own self contained mini galley and Lav. In the case of the AA aircraft, they tried to storm the door and it held. THen they started cutting to flight attendants untill the pilots relented and opened the doors. The knives used consisted of plasic handles into which the razor blades from their shaving kit was inserted. More than enough to cut a throat.
The answer will have to be in a complete redesign of the aircraft to the above configuration, and in the short term armed sky marshals on every flight untill the aircraft is reconfigured. That way the crew can't be coerced into releasing the locks.
An aircraft is just a giant fuel air bomb. Turn on CNN if you don't believe me.
Wino
I don't often disagree with you, but in this case you are so wrong. Even in Prison, where prisoners are repeatedly strip searched and constantly contained in a sterile envirnment it is impossible to keep the knives out with which prisoners are always murdering each other.
There is no accounting for a small group of people bent on suicide. Now that it has been proven just how easy it really is, this could be done by a group of unarmed people with martial arts skills.
The answer will be to configure the aircraft similar to the 757 PF, where the forward door is for the cockpit, and then there is a solid barrier between the main deck and the cockpit. Access to the cockpit is going to have be from outside the aircraft only, with its own self contained mini galley and Lav. In the case of the AA aircraft, they tried to storm the door and it held. THen they started cutting to flight attendants untill the pilots relented and opened the doors. The knives used consisted of plasic handles into which the razor blades from their shaving kit was inserted. More than enough to cut a throat.
The answer will have to be in a complete redesign of the aircraft to the above configuration, and in the short term armed sky marshals on every flight untill the aircraft is reconfigured. That way the crew can't be coerced into releasing the locks.
An aircraft is just a giant fuel air bomb. Turn on CNN if you don't believe me.
Wino
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Capt PPRuNE,
I agree with your comments regarding increased security prior to boarding. I also agree with your comments relating to pay and conditions for security staff. I am less qualified to comment on their training.
However, I can’t see how any intelligence service, even if given infinite resources could prevent a fanatical suicide “pilot” boarding an aircraft as a passenger. Although this particular attack was the work of a organized groups of terrorists, a suitably deranged individual, with no previous criminal record and with no previously apparent motive, could get into the flight deck and jeopardize the safety of the aircraft with minimal weapons – or none at all.
Regardless of how much extra money is spent on screening and security prior to boarding, I honestly don’t think you can stop someone with no previous conviction, known terrorist involvement or motive (or indeed, traveling under a false identity) from boarding an aircraft – and as we have seen once they are on board they CAN cause dreadful damage not only to the aircraft and its occupants but also to thousands of people on the ground. We need to ensure that they CANNOT.
The rules of terrorism and hijacking have been rewritten and we need to fully examine the whole aspect of airborne security.
I agree with your comments regarding increased security prior to boarding. I also agree with your comments relating to pay and conditions for security staff. I am less qualified to comment on their training.
However, I can’t see how any intelligence service, even if given infinite resources could prevent a fanatical suicide “pilot” boarding an aircraft as a passenger. Although this particular attack was the work of a organized groups of terrorists, a suitably deranged individual, with no previous criminal record and with no previously apparent motive, could get into the flight deck and jeopardize the safety of the aircraft with minimal weapons – or none at all.
Regardless of how much extra money is spent on screening and security prior to boarding, I honestly don’t think you can stop someone with no previous conviction, known terrorist involvement or motive (or indeed, traveling under a false identity) from boarding an aircraft – and as we have seen once they are on board they CAN cause dreadful damage not only to the aircraft and its occupants but also to thousands of people on the ground. We need to ensure that they CANNOT.
The rules of terrorism and hijacking have been rewritten and we need to fully examine the whole aspect of airborne security.
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I agree entirely with ckings comments above,
It is time now to ensure that the flight deck becomes some kind of secure enviroment with the best planners in the aviation business finding a way that is ameanable and secure.
The BA 747 was seconds from certain disaster
and with 4 large airliners taken within minutes of each other, no-one is safe any more.
While we thought air-rage was almost unthinkable 10 years ago, now we are seeing things very differently.
Now that terrorists or anyone with cruel streak knows that these acts are certain to succeed,short of bodysearching all passengers,and blacklisting those from certain countries, this type of sabotage is almost certain to re-occur.
Its time to open our eyes to this new type of threat and get on top of it ASAP.
It is time now to ensure that the flight deck becomes some kind of secure enviroment with the best planners in the aviation business finding a way that is ameanable and secure.
The BA 747 was seconds from certain disaster
and with 4 large airliners taken within minutes of each other, no-one is safe any more.
While we thought air-rage was almost unthinkable 10 years ago, now we are seeing things very differently.
Now that terrorists or anyone with cruel streak knows that these acts are certain to succeed,short of bodysearching all passengers,and blacklisting those from certain countries, this type of sabotage is almost certain to re-occur.
Its time to open our eyes to this new type of threat and get on top of it ASAP.
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Have to agree with point raised by Danny.
These guys once allowed on an aircraft will get to the cockpit one way or another.
If you lock the door, at some point you'll need to have access for food/drinks, stretch or the call of nature. In this day and age when many aircraft are downsizing, supplying the pilots with their own restroom will surely not be worn by airliners operating regional jets (just as dangerous as the bigger aircraft in the wrong hands!).
If the door is locked during flight it would increase the time period to ingress the cockpit BUT for the sake of maybe 1 minute. Pilots would still probably be unaware of the situation. Whose to say that they wouldn't take a cabin attendant hostage and convince them with said shaving kit to open the door or communicate to flight deck that they are bringing drinks in.
Why stop there? They could easily spike both flight crew drinks, then when they're unconcious volenteer their own services as (MS Flight Sim?) qualified pilots.
So the answer 1st lies in detecting these b****rds and keeping them away from aircraft. Anyone caught planning or conspiring to such acts should be dealt with in the most SEVERE way possible. They have no regard for they're lives anyway, so why not give them a helping hand on they're way to they're maker!
These guys once allowed on an aircraft will get to the cockpit one way or another.
If you lock the door, at some point you'll need to have access for food/drinks, stretch or the call of nature. In this day and age when many aircraft are downsizing, supplying the pilots with their own restroom will surely not be worn by airliners operating regional jets (just as dangerous as the bigger aircraft in the wrong hands!).
If the door is locked during flight it would increase the time period to ingress the cockpit BUT for the sake of maybe 1 minute. Pilots would still probably be unaware of the situation. Whose to say that they wouldn't take a cabin attendant hostage and convince them with said shaving kit to open the door or communicate to flight deck that they are bringing drinks in.
Why stop there? They could easily spike both flight crew drinks, then when they're unconcious volenteer their own services as (MS Flight Sim?) qualified pilots.
So the answer 1st lies in detecting these b****rds and keeping them away from aircraft. Anyone caught planning or conspiring to such acts should be dealt with in the most SEVERE way possible. They have no regard for they're lives anyway, so why not give them a helping hand on they're way to they're maker!
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This topic is already being discussed on the Tech. Log (and every other forum!) at: http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimat...c&f=3&t=002473
I guess it's a question on everyone's mind.
I guess it's a question on everyone's mind.
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I agree we do not want these type of people onboard in the 1st place, but on what premise are you going to deny access?
You would have to vet billions of people (impossible)and check on their past histories.
Then you have to exact proof of ID,again impossible.
I have been on 2 flights in the last 15 years with groups of Arabic / N African passengers behaving very suspiciously,
-like something out of a movie.
In this situation, we had no idea of their origins , intentions , and their purpose for being onboard.- You can't stage an interrogation mid-cabin on pushback, just because you have a hunch.
(These guys in both circumstances, moved frequently around the cabin , and were spread throughout the aircraft, passing hand-signals and mouthing expressions to one another.)
It is very difficult to find a solution, and I would think almost impossible to create a list of known terrorists/sympathisers, and have this information quickly accessible to all airlines at short notice.
Theres a good solution somewhere, I hope someone finds it and implements it before we have another such tragedy .
You would have to vet billions of people (impossible)and check on their past histories.
Then you have to exact proof of ID,again impossible.
I have been on 2 flights in the last 15 years with groups of Arabic / N African passengers behaving very suspiciously,
-like something out of a movie.
In this situation, we had no idea of their origins , intentions , and their purpose for being onboard.- You can't stage an interrogation mid-cabin on pushback, just because you have a hunch.
(These guys in both circumstances, moved frequently around the cabin , and were spread throughout the aircraft, passing hand-signals and mouthing expressions to one another.)
It is very difficult to find a solution, and I would think almost impossible to create a list of known terrorists/sympathisers, and have this information quickly accessible to all airlines at short notice.
Theres a good solution somewhere, I hope someone finds it and implements it before we have another such tragedy .
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Now gents, one very difficult question needs to be adressed and that is :
Will, would any of us open the cockpit door EVER again EVEN if the girls at the back were being butchered, be it over the Atlantic or Europe ? I am rostered next week after having flown on that tragic day and I am dreading thoses anxious looks at briefing because I think we all know the answer or do we not ?
Not only has this taken highjacking to a new level of horror but it will also certainly change a lot of things within crew relations.
Of course security at airports needs to be beefed up but like someone else said, and sadely so, this, however tragic and brutal act of barbarism will be quickly, or rather quickly forgotten because the Western world has always been used to move freely around the globe . Give it just a while until these new measures are felt like being a pain in the toush.
I've always been a strong advocate of closed cockpit door. The stronger the door, the better. All the nearmisses that happened these last months or years ( BA, Air France, ANA etc ....) were just a wake up call that nobody listened to.
That surely never happened on El Al.
What a ****ty day !
Opinions greatly welcomed.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: wallabie ]
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: wallabie ]
Will, would any of us open the cockpit door EVER again EVEN if the girls at the back were being butchered, be it over the Atlantic or Europe ? I am rostered next week after having flown on that tragic day and I am dreading thoses anxious looks at briefing because I think we all know the answer or do we not ?
Not only has this taken highjacking to a new level of horror but it will also certainly change a lot of things within crew relations.
Of course security at airports needs to be beefed up but like someone else said, and sadely so, this, however tragic and brutal act of barbarism will be quickly, or rather quickly forgotten because the Western world has always been used to move freely around the globe . Give it just a while until these new measures are felt like being a pain in the toush.
I've always been a strong advocate of closed cockpit door. The stronger the door, the better. All the nearmisses that happened these last months or years ( BA, Air France, ANA etc ....) were just a wake up call that nobody listened to.
That surely never happened on El Al.
What a ****ty day !
Opinions greatly welcomed.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: wallabie ]
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: wallabie ]
Wallabie!
You'll be astonished, but I agree. What is wrong with both belt (adequate checks to prevent boarding) and braces (a locked cockpit door from push-back to shut-down)?
JN
You'll be astonished, but I agree. What is wrong with both belt (adequate checks to prevent boarding) and braces (a locked cockpit door from push-back to shut-down)?
JN
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All soviet aircraft have an iron door closed from take-off till landing. In AEROFLOT it could be opened after special signal from the flight attendant only. And every one crew had two handguns..... and there are some killed highjackers........ But I am still not sure what is better.....
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I'm just an engineer. But I'll design you a cockpit interface which can't be penetrated without serious power tools, and which will function as required for the de-pressurization case as well as for other HVAC cases. No charge. Will the airlines be prepared to pay the cost in weight and revenue loss? We shall see, I guess.
As with all the other suggestions made, there is no one silver bullet which will fix all these problems. What seems to be significant is to look at a whole spectrum of options. Not all of them have to be deployed, all the time. Not all of them will work in all cases. Some, at least, will involve some terrible decisions on the part of flight-deck crew, and those of you that do that are going to have to start looking within yourselves to see whether you are ready to do those things.
If someone starts killing cabin crew or passengers to try and make you let them onto the flight deck, there is a good chance now that they want your airplane for keeps, and not just for you to take them to Cuba.
When you push back, you take the lives of every piece of SLF in your hands. That's enough responsibility for most people, right there.
Now, when some wild-eyed maniac starts cutting up the passengers or the cabin crew becasue you won't open the door, there's a good chance that he's not only planning to kill everyone aboard (sooner or later) but also to kill as many people on the ground as he can get to. Those of you forward of the cockpit door are the only hope then, not only for everyone behind you but for large numbers of people on the ground as well. You may well have to decide that the people behind you are going to have to take their chances in order to avert much greater loss of life below.
Some of you may be ready for that terrible calculus. Others may not. But I think that you should at least consider giving the tools to make that work to those who are ready to use them, and that means a cockpit bulkhead that will keep you alive and capable of putting the a/c on the ground - any ground - where it can't hurt anyone else.
Of course security at US airports needs to be seriously upgraded from the present joke status. Of course we need tools to identify and extract people who would do this sort of thing. Of course we need to explore ways to prevent a/c from being used in these ways, even if they are taken over by skilled pilots who welcome death. But I submit that giving the flight crew the option of keeping the a/c out of the hands of such aggressors is just another part of this whole spectrum of prevention.
llater,
llamas
As with all the other suggestions made, there is no one silver bullet which will fix all these problems. What seems to be significant is to look at a whole spectrum of options. Not all of them have to be deployed, all the time. Not all of them will work in all cases. Some, at least, will involve some terrible decisions on the part of flight-deck crew, and those of you that do that are going to have to start looking within yourselves to see whether you are ready to do those things.
If someone starts killing cabin crew or passengers to try and make you let them onto the flight deck, there is a good chance now that they want your airplane for keeps, and not just for you to take them to Cuba.
When you push back, you take the lives of every piece of SLF in your hands. That's enough responsibility for most people, right there.
Now, when some wild-eyed maniac starts cutting up the passengers or the cabin crew becasue you won't open the door, there's a good chance that he's not only planning to kill everyone aboard (sooner or later) but also to kill as many people on the ground as he can get to. Those of you forward of the cockpit door are the only hope then, not only for everyone behind you but for large numbers of people on the ground as well. You may well have to decide that the people behind you are going to have to take their chances in order to avert much greater loss of life below.
Some of you may be ready for that terrible calculus. Others may not. But I think that you should at least consider giving the tools to make that work to those who are ready to use them, and that means a cockpit bulkhead that will keep you alive and capable of putting the a/c on the ground - any ground - where it can't hurt anyone else.
Of course security at US airports needs to be seriously upgraded from the present joke status. Of course we need tools to identify and extract people who would do this sort of thing. Of course we need to explore ways to prevent a/c from being used in these ways, even if they are taken over by skilled pilots who welcome death. But I submit that giving the flight crew the option of keeping the a/c out of the hands of such aggressors is just another part of this whole spectrum of prevention.
llater,
llamas
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The other factor will now be the willingness of the other passengers in any future Hi-Jack to "get involved".
If you are on a hi-jacked plane now, the stakes have changed. You could well be fighting for your own and many other potential lives. I think that you will find that in future attempts the passengers will be much more willing to get involved in a direct way. Obviously the rumours about the bravery of the SLF on the Philly plane will do nothing but inspire. Would you do the same ? I like to think that I would.
Locking and securing the doors to the flight deck will ONLY work, if the crew refuse under every circumstance to open it up during a Hi-Jack senario. That means leaving all the cabin crew and SLF to their own devices, and simply getting the plane onto the ground ASAP.
That is obviously a massive re-think to the passive methods instructed of pilots today.
What would you do ?
How would you feel having landed a plane with a number of murdered passengers in the back because you didn't open the door ?
Should we assume that all future Hi-jacks are destined for building impact and should therefore ignore ALL demands from the main cabin ?
This is a tough subject. Giving up your responsibility to the cabin crew and SLF is not going to be easy.
If you are on a hi-jacked plane now, the stakes have changed. You could well be fighting for your own and many other potential lives. I think that you will find that in future attempts the passengers will be much more willing to get involved in a direct way. Obviously the rumours about the bravery of the SLF on the Philly plane will do nothing but inspire. Would you do the same ? I like to think that I would.
Locking and securing the doors to the flight deck will ONLY work, if the crew refuse under every circumstance to open it up during a Hi-Jack senario. That means leaving all the cabin crew and SLF to their own devices, and simply getting the plane onto the ground ASAP.
That is obviously a massive re-think to the passive methods instructed of pilots today.
What would you do ?
How would you feel having landed a plane with a number of murdered passengers in the back because you didn't open the door ?
Should we assume that all future Hi-jacks are destined for building impact and should therefore ignore ALL demands from the main cabin ?
This is a tough subject. Giving up your responsibility to the cabin crew and SLF is not going to be easy.
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For info: Brymon Airways(Dash8 & EMB145) have banned flight deck visits. The document does'nt say but by just a little lateral thinking this bans commercial jumpseaters)always at the Captains discretion) as well! As a result of this understandable direction I had to refuse in flight access to a 5 year old girl and her 3 year old brother. Still we got them up for a look after landing. I am very glad to say that their parents were very understanding & supportive when I explained why I had refused.
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I'm of the opinion that a sealed cockpit is the only way - regrettably steward/esses would have to get killed, whilst the pilots find the nearest airport, land, and disenbark through hatch whilst the plane is disablised somehow. Once highjackers know this is the routine - and that anything they do will not get them in the cockpit, then this should act as a deterent.
The only problem is that pilots will have to
stay locked in whatever - as one highjacker could play at being drunk & disorderly or whatever, to lure a pilot out, whilst fellow hijacker gained access.
This would mean that a locked cabin would mean that 100% no cockpit access throughout flight *whatever* happens - otherwise it is pointless.
[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: RedMonkey ]
[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: RedMonkey ]
The only problem is that pilots will have to
stay locked in whatever - as one highjacker could play at being drunk & disorderly or whatever, to lure a pilot out, whilst fellow hijacker gained access.
This would mean that a locked cabin would mean that 100% no cockpit access throughout flight *whatever* happens - otherwise it is pointless.
[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: RedMonkey ]
[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: RedMonkey ]
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Danny,
"Do you propose we have a steel door with a time lock and a slot where a plate with some food can be passed through? Forget the slot, just leave us with a pack of rations."
For those lucky enough to have crew food
"Do you propose we have a steel door with a time lock and a slot where a plate with some food can be passed through? Forget the slot, just leave us with a pack of rations."
For those lucky enough to have crew food
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Isolate the cockpit and put surveillance cameras and cabin comms through sat comms to a ground based incident room for seperate relay to the flight deck as required. Cost about 3 seats on a 757 or 2% on seat costs. This would stop the aircraft being used as a missile. It would not stop the lone suicide bomber who can only be combatted by efficient pre-flight screening.
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Why not remove the pilots and the cockpit altogether? All commercial passenger aircraft could be flown remotely from the ground and then there's no possibility of a hijacker threatening the pilots or taking over the controls.
On the other hand we could try to avoid kneejerk and/or extreme reactions. It would be easy to over-react in this instance because of the sheer scale of the loss of life and destruction, however, I agree with Danny in his early post that the most effective way to deal with this threat is to prevent would be hijackers from gaining access to aircraft in the first place. These were four aircraft out of the many thousand commercial flights worldwide each day. Each was an internal US flight where for many years security has been notorious for its laxity compared with international flights. Hijacking on international flights is almost non-existent and despite the horror of what happened on Tuesday the scale of any future threat and the answer to it should be assessed in a calm and rational manner. Increased security on internal flights is likely to remove the risk of such an incident occuring with a comemrcial passenger aircraft in the future. Unfortunately it will not remove the likelihood of other terrorist atrocities continuing in the future.
On the other hand we could try to avoid kneejerk and/or extreme reactions. It would be easy to over-react in this instance because of the sheer scale of the loss of life and destruction, however, I agree with Danny in his early post that the most effective way to deal with this threat is to prevent would be hijackers from gaining access to aircraft in the first place. These were four aircraft out of the many thousand commercial flights worldwide each day. Each was an internal US flight where for many years security has been notorious for its laxity compared with international flights. Hijacking on international flights is almost non-existent and despite the horror of what happened on Tuesday the scale of any future threat and the answer to it should be assessed in a calm and rational manner. Increased security on internal flights is likely to remove the risk of such an incident occuring with a comemrcial passenger aircraft in the future. Unfortunately it will not remove the likelihood of other terrorist atrocities continuing in the future.