Cockpit doors / access

[QM]

By the way guys, don't forget, that fanatics could well already be in the employ of the airlines as pilots. Locking them in gives them complete unhindered access to do what they wish.

[aloneincommand]

Good, a lot of good ideas and safety projects in the air, but, can anybody tell me when my family, relatives or friends walk to the mall, train station, subway or just to take the bus, what is going to prevent any of this "insane" fanatics from doing what they just did? Sorry if my comment is out of place, but I believe this topic doesn't involve just aviation, it involves a hole WAY of life.
If the beings, I cannot call them people, causing all this terror believe that they are from a different race, sorry, but the will have to be extinguished.
In the meantime, any upgrade of safety measures will make this "beings" think things twice, but is not going to stop them.
Happy landings everybody.

[Wino]

Capn natarious,

AA used to have cockpit cameras that were broadcast in the main cabin. That ended with the DC-10 Crash in Chicago where everyone got to watch the ground rise up to meet them.

I think other airlines also had it up till then. If you want to see what it is like to fly, my best advice is to go to the local airport and take a flying lesson. They are fairly cheap when taken singly. It is only breath takingly expensive when you are trying to obtain a rating and have to take a very large number of them.

Cheers
Wino

[Chimbu chuckles]

WWW,
I presume you have some idea how much 24/7 CAP over every airport capable of jet operations in the World will cost!

Who will pay for that?
Who will explain the accidental shoot down of some small nations aircraft that is having comms problems and wanders off track a bit?

Why are you all so keen to finish the job, economically speaking, that the terrorists started?

Sorry WWW but move to the top of the silly/expensive/impractical ideas list.

People if we keep kicking around, let alone let Govt Agencies keep kicking around, truly dumb ideas that have NO CHANCE of a positive effect on the problem this industry is FINISHED economically.

Arming crews will not work for the reason that to use a suitable weapon effectively requires LOTS and LOTS of specific training. The SAS train LONG and HARD at effective Anti Terrorist scenarios. Just shooting someone, who is probably on an INCREDIBLE Adrenaline high won't necessarily slow them down, let alone disable them. There was a case of a gun fight between US FBI Agents and two nutcase gunman in Florida years ago and one nutcase was shot a dozen odd times(over quite a long period of time) before he finally stopped shooting cops dead! What finally stopped him ? Loss of blood! 6, from memory, Cops died before the guy just collapsed! Macho bravado aside there would not be 10% of airline crew with the skills and mental strength to make the split second correct decision required to do other than agravate the situation, or shoot an innocent pax who is behind the baddy.

Seperate cockpits is not economically possible.

Any amount of airport security would not have stopped last weeks tragedy, unless the Terrorists were on a data base! What percentage of the worlds POTENTIAL terrorists will ever make it on a database.

Depressurise at FL350 and possibly kill how many innocent pax?(or are the masks going to deploy thereby giving your trained/motivated nutcase another chance?) Imagine the Law Suits from the Ambulance chasers!

Some sort of 'Knock out Gas'? Imagine the PR nightmare that would cause the airlines that try to intro it? Accidental discharge Knocks out tech crew?

2g spiral down the suitable airport that just happens to be right below you in the 2 or 3 minutes that this will all be over in? Through, with the advent of RVSM, 35 or 40 other levels with possible traffic.

For the sake of our industry and professions PLEASE stop all this paranoid, meaningless ramble and contact your IFALPA reps and insist that the ONLY airline that hasn't and probably won't suffer this attrocity is approached to brief Govt and Airline management on the techniques that HAVE WORKED for them for decades! Israeli Airlines.

Chuck.

[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]

[tony draper]

A good quality hi res 660 line colour cctv camera can be had for about 500 quid, looking back from the cockpit door location covering the entire cabin.
Could be installed quickly and cheaply.
I'll do the job for you in a hour, straight grand a pop.




[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

[Few Cloudy]

Well my door is going to be locked. If anyone wants to communicate he can use the interphone.

Sky marshals - tigers - call them what you like are used by some airlines - on some flights. This evil act has shown that any flight by any airline is at risk.

And all the fancy ideas about what to do with pressurisation etc. shouldn't be on the internet - available to any terrorist. In Swissair, once a hijacker was overcome by a sky marshall wielding a small champagne bottle. This news was in the paper the next day.

This is war gentlemen and the intelligence gained should be kept in company secure channels. Typically the publicity about people who were suspected for having one way tickets - the people who got demasked through simulator records mean one less chance of detection next time, as these diabolical fanatics think up new ways.

[shotpeened]

I'm with Chimbu Chuckles. The simplest quickest solution, that would assauage passengers' and crews' immediate fears is the immediate introduction of ingognito air marshals, at least one per flight. A flight deck is not a terribly difficult place to defend, a very confined space, with only one useable narrow access. Assuming the would be attacker doesn't have a gun, then a/c on aotopilot and an electric cattle prod would do the trick.
Seriously though, all solutions have to considered. What is true is that every airline and authority is going to have to address crew training. In spite of the fact that aircraft have frequently been placed in danger by disruptive pax, there has not been to my knowledge any serious airline reaction except "jail 'em". Too late.

[Wino]

Shotpeened,

The skymarshals are more expensive than the seperate cockpits.

You got to block a seat for the skymarshal. Then you have to pay him to sit in the seat. All the time.

The ElAL apparently allready use my method of a completely isolated cockpit and that is most likely gonna be the way to go. On the A300 that I fly, it can easily be done with no loss of doors or seats, though an extra door to the cockpit would have to be added. But adding a door is no big deal. BIG doors are added to aircraft all the time when they are converted to freighters.

This will happen again, if only because it was so wildly successful.

The answer in the short term is sky marshals, untill the aircraft can be modified. Then once the aircraft is modified, then the skymarshals can be removed.

Cheers
Wino

[kippa]

Sealed flight deck doors are a non starter. Even the cost of supplying basic amenities such as galley and loo and leg stretch area, yes pilots suffer from DVT as well. But will airlines / the paying passenger be prepared to pay for the third pilot on every flight. Who else is going to tighten the harness and pull the incapacitated pilot clear of the controls?

So it looks like we have to have sky marshalls and three crew on every flight.


Low cost airlines?????

[Wino]

chatham,
who does all that you think on the freighters? The 757 PF is configured exactly that way already with a new crew door cut further forward, a solid bulkhead behind it, and a lav and galley more or less in the cockpit. 100s have been built and are successfully flying with a 2 man crew. Who pulls the UPS pilot out of the controls?

Any of these aircraft can be flown by one pilot in the even of incapacitation of the other pilot. Are you saying that UPS is unsafe? How about all the other freighters out there?

It is the only long term answer. Infact all 757s delivered tomorrow could probably be in the PF config with the windows and seats reinstalled behind the solid bulkhead! It seams that 757 could be arriving at the airlines in no time at all properly configured.

Cheers
Wino

[johntrav69]

These ideas all have merits, but must be weighed up against the problems they cause. How about a beefed up door which is normally locked before take-off until above a certain FL, but open during cruise for CRM/Food purposes. The door needs to be capable of being broken down within a minute using sufficient force in case of the sleeper scenario. This needs to be tied in with an effective CCTV system so we know when to hit the lock button if trouble occurs. After these precautions I think we all realise that its up to the pax to look after themselves, be it in the case where the door stays locked after trouble flares, or in the case of forced/sleeper entry to the cockpit that they can overpower the hijackers then. Most of us only have jobs because air travel is relatively cheap at the moment, lets bear that in mind.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Chimbu - CAP above London, Paris, LA, NY, et al would be dirt cheap as the pilots, aircraft and support are already there. All you would be doing is moving the CAP a few hundred miles. Lets not forget that the UK up until the late 1980's kept a constant CAP plus a credible QRF and a short notice nuclear strike force.

Secure digital satcom could be provided for less than £2million per aircraft with frills. Beefed up doors would be less than £100k with cctv.

Or we could just issue flightcrew with .44 magnums and be done with it.

WWW

[bushmill]

Actually, I was interested to learn that Wino's 757 freighters already have isolated cockpits. The company I work for have about 48 747-400s with about 8 freighters & we fly them all as 1 type. The freighter cockpits aren't isolated from the rest of the airplane; we have total access to the main deck, although we don't have any procedures that require us there in flight. The only parts of the airplane we can't get to are the lower cargo holds. But that's an interesting thought all the same, but I'm personally not keen on being completely cut off from the rest of the aircraft.

[Final 3 Greens]

The problem here is that we are rationalising a response to people whose values seem completely irrational to us, so we struggle to equate our thinking to theirs.

If the flight deck door is locked and hijackers are running free, what other tactics could they try? Popping the doors or hatches and trying to cause damage by depressurisation (if this is not feasible, forgive my lack of knowledge.)

It seems a reasonable response to lock the f/d door under the circumstances (will make the slf feel better if nothing else and their cash is vital at the moment), but it is treating a symptom.

Increasing security on the ground is also a reasonable response, but I guess what is needed is a full review of how ops work and some thinking outside the box to deliver an end-to-end solution.

I wish i was clever enough to come up with an answer, but I am not.

As a regular traveller, I just hope that the authorities and carriers seriously address the new situation we find ourselves in as a matter of urgency.

[FasterFaster]

There may be a way to increase flight deck security and allow crew to move in and out of the cabin as necessary. I understand that El Al have fitted on all their aircraft an armoured interlinked double door. There is space between the doors for one person, and one person only. The inner door cannot be opened unless the outer door is locked, rather like an airlock.

Combine this with a viewer, and it would be very difficult for a hijacker to enter the flight deck, but a pilot could still go back to check downlock viewers etc, and the cabin crew could come forward with food and the regular cups of tea that we British types cannot go more than 20 minutes without.

What do you think?

[recceguy]

Yes, my cockpit door will stay close, in case of the horrible events above depicted. A problem for anybody? As one of the members pointed, you have to be tough.
Problem is that, in our industry, many seem to be a little... soft (which is understanbable, after all they didn't join to fight!)
Many talks also, before, about El AL. Yes, good security there. By the way, in this company, how many of their pilots don't have a military background (former fighter jocks of the IAF)? Very, very few, I have been told. But maybe I am wrong?

[300hrWannaB]

I'm SLF and probably likely to stay that way for good now. After all the competition for the remaining jobs has just hotted up significantly. (BA, Virgin etc).

From my humble viewpoint, please keep your doors locked. As for the cr@p about viewing gear-down locks when was the last time you left the cabin in flight? Ask the staff to do it and report by the phone.

It would however be nice to have a brief word after landing, I'm sure that even the chief smiling officer would allow that. I do acknowledge that after landing is probably the busiest time of the whole flight

What all pax appreciate is a little bit of communication from both drivers. Geography lessons are a safe topic, but we do like to be told if we are routing via Nice cos Spain's shut, or that the reason we just descended was cos we did an accidental altitude bust (rather than having a swan stuck inside No1). (You know who you are)

A final grim thought: It will only take one or two copycat incidents before the travelling public at large start to accept the possibility of flying on pilotless aircraft.