Cockpit doors / access
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I think that the acts that happened were beyond anyone's imagination - who would have thought that all this could be carried with the threat of knives only! - Scary!
About the cockpit door - has it never been suggested to make them sliding? - This way, if locked no-one would even be able to kick them down!
Also in light of what has happened - is there not a facility in the pipe dreams, that allows an over-ride that cannot be altered once decided - i.e. maybe a failsafe button that automatically takes the control away from any of the pilots? ATC could perform autolands / VOR courses etc!
I know this would cause immense problems if it went wrong - but it would stop mad men with no value for human life flying into packed buildings!
About the cockpit door - has it never been suggested to make them sliding? - This way, if locked no-one would even be able to kick them down!
Also in light of what has happened - is there not a facility in the pipe dreams, that allows an over-ride that cannot be altered once decided - i.e. maybe a failsafe button that automatically takes the control away from any of the pilots? ATC could perform autolands / VOR courses etc!
I know this would cause immense problems if it went wrong - but it would stop mad men with no value for human life flying into packed buildings!
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Sealing up the cockpit completely from the rest of the aircraft may sound like a good idea, but it creates other problems too. Pilot incapacitation, for example. What if one guy gets incapacitated & you have a bunch of other off-duty colleagues travelling in the back? What about resource management then? Yes, you can say 'just too bad, it's worth the risk'. But then it's really all a balance, isn't it? It's no secret that the statistics are that incidences of crew incapacitation are far, far higher than incidences of the sort we've just seen in NY & DC. Or what'll happen if you need to go behind to take a look for yourself? Like your pre-takeoff de-icing visual check of the wing? Or even some kind of problem that developes in flight when you might want to send the F/O back (time permitting) to take a look? So where do we draw the line? You solve one thing only to have open up a bigger can of worms for yourself. What happenned on Tues is pathetic & shameful to say the least, but in the bigger picture, the chances of this happenning again are more slim than having some of the other types of in-flight problems.
Some people have suggested that a system could be installed to allow ATC to control an aircraft remotely in order to take control away from hijackers who might have gained access to the flight deck.
Bad idea. Why? The technology may already exist but installing such a system would create a new vulnerability. If there is a system for remote control of an aircraft then there will be the possibility that non-suicidal terrorists could gain control of that system and use an aircraft as a missile without putting themselves in danger.
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: stagger ]
Bad idea. Why? The technology may already exist but installing such a system would create a new vulnerability. If there is a system for remote control of an aircraft then there will be the possibility that non-suicidal terrorists could gain control of that system and use an aircraft as a missile without putting themselves in danger.
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: stagger ]
Union Goon
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Bushmill
All the world's freighters have no acces to the back, and no extra crew to draw on.
ON a long haul flight the extra crew would already be foward with the cockpit crew. On a short haul flight the reason that airplanes have two pilots is that in the event of the loss of one, the other can land the aircraft. That is the whole point, or we would already be down to one pilot in the cockpit like on the Cessna Jets...
There is nothing to be checked in the back. If there is a question, LAND the airplane. There are actually virtually no pilot serviceable parts in the back of a jet, and is just for peace of mind. But if you got that serious a question, land the jet and let an engineer look at it. As far as landing Gear down locks go, that can easily be done with cameras.
Wino
All the world's freighters have no acces to the back, and no extra crew to draw on.
ON a long haul flight the extra crew would already be foward with the cockpit crew. On a short haul flight the reason that airplanes have two pilots is that in the event of the loss of one, the other can land the aircraft. That is the whole point, or we would already be down to one pilot in the cockpit like on the Cessna Jets...
There is nothing to be checked in the back. If there is a question, LAND the airplane. There are actually virtually no pilot serviceable parts in the back of a jet, and is just for peace of mind. But if you got that serious a question, land the jet and let an engineer look at it. As far as landing Gear down locks go, that can easily be done with cameras.
Wino
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Capt Pprune is correct on this issue we must look at ways of stopping this from happening again but not to the detriment of all other flights. A closed door is a barrier to effective crew communications and situational awareness, remember Sioux City there would have been much greater loss of life if the training Captain who was a pax could not have entered the flight deck to help! How would you deal with a pilot incompacitation if there was no flight deck access from the cabin. Lets be serious here and concern ourselves with all flights and all possible scenarios, we are in charge of the whole aircraft not just the flight deck we need access to the whole aircraft otherwise we might as well fly it via radio control from the ground.
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Indeed...
These comments make sense.Why not shut the bloody cockpit door?What is the price for hot food.A sick debate when 10,000 people have just been crushed to death.Sorry , but if a 10 yr old can't visit the FlightDeck to look at the view and say nothing then so be it.Where do you draw the line...10yrs,13yrs,16yrs...Kids become fanatics too.Eg TV pictures of 36hrs ago.
Up the (new) Revolution.(ours)
These comments make sense.Why not shut the bloody cockpit door?What is the price for hot food.A sick debate when 10,000 people have just been crushed to death.Sorry , but if a 10 yr old can't visit the FlightDeck to look at the view and say nothing then so be it.Where do you draw the line...10yrs,13yrs,16yrs...Kids become fanatics too.Eg TV pictures of 36hrs ago.
Up the (new) Revolution.(ours)
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As many already pointed out, what really makes sense is a combination of reinforced and/or redesigned cockpit doors AND an enormously sophisticated passenger tracking and "extraction" system on the ground.
What do I mean by a reinforced door? Something that will withstand kicks and bullets. Why not get them specially made with the lightest strong material available, lined with kev on the inside to keep bullets away. This would probably have to extend the entire wall of the cockpit. And the sliding door idea might actually work provided they arent too tensile/flexible. Add to it a CC camera to let the flying crew kow who's knocking on the other side and that should be a substantial safeguard and deterrent against intruders.
Thoughts??
What do I mean by a reinforced door? Something that will withstand kicks and bullets. Why not get them specially made with the lightest strong material available, lined with kev on the inside to keep bullets away. This would probably have to extend the entire wall of the cockpit. And the sliding door idea might actually work provided they arent too tensile/flexible. Add to it a CC camera to let the flying crew kow who's knocking on the other side and that should be a substantial safeguard and deterrent against intruders.
Thoughts??
Grandpa Aerotart
In the end it will come down to cost against benefit.
Redesign aircraft so that we are locked in an airtight little cocoon?
Bloody expensive when you look at the world wide fleet!.
Video cameras in the cockpit won't stop the collision with the building...just film it from a better angle than the networks will ever manage.
Remote control?...give me a break!
Increased security? Lets think about this for a minute...WAS there actually an airport security breakdown that contributed to this obscenity....NO...a bunch of individuals boarded some aircraft, with no weapons as such, took the aircraft over and rammed the the WTC and Pentagon. They could as easily have used the aircraft fire extinguishers to bludgeon the crew.
Think about it for a minute.....you will NEVER EVER be able to identify a potential terrorist pilot from all the other people boarding the aircraft. These people don't have ANY identifying physical features, they just believe in a cause in a way, and to an extent, we can't understand!
You are not going to stop these things from beginning....only from ending badly!
Do El AL have all the BS ideas people are coming up with...NO....have they been hijacked in living memory....NO, and they are at the epicentre of the terrorist world. rightly or wrongly they are the catalyst for most hijackings by Islamic Nutcases! What do they do? Carry armed and HIGHLY trained 'sky marshals'(Mosad chappies at a guess).
The ONLY way, IMHO, you are going to battle this proble in a credible manner is to have HIGHLY trained 'airborne snipers'.
We have regulations which dictate minimum F/As per number of seats, perhaps the same will need to be done for 'airborne security'.
No-one will no how many, where they are seated in the cabin, or ANYthing else about them. Lets face it, how many times would you even have to displace paying pax?
This ONE move would virtually stop hijacks dead,pun intended, in their tracks. The cost is miniscule compared to the overcomplicated crap half of the posts on this(and other threads) are suggesting!
These people already exist and are trained to the required levels, they're called SAS!
All this **** about landing a jet with a blood bath going on in the back 'cause we're not opening the door is crap.
Redesign nothing! Let little Johnny and his sister come up and wonder at the magic....I WANT to be sexually harrased by the girlies in the back....Lock me in my own atmosphere with a cut lunch for X hours of zero communication with my crew and you can shove this job right up your.....!!!!!
CHUCK
Redesign aircraft so that we are locked in an airtight little cocoon?
Bloody expensive when you look at the world wide fleet!.
Video cameras in the cockpit won't stop the collision with the building...just film it from a better angle than the networks will ever manage.
Remote control?...give me a break!
Increased security? Lets think about this for a minute...WAS there actually an airport security breakdown that contributed to this obscenity....NO...a bunch of individuals boarded some aircraft, with no weapons as such, took the aircraft over and rammed the the WTC and Pentagon. They could as easily have used the aircraft fire extinguishers to bludgeon the crew.
Think about it for a minute.....you will NEVER EVER be able to identify a potential terrorist pilot from all the other people boarding the aircraft. These people don't have ANY identifying physical features, they just believe in a cause in a way, and to an extent, we can't understand!
You are not going to stop these things from beginning....only from ending badly!
Do El AL have all the BS ideas people are coming up with...NO....have they been hijacked in living memory....NO, and they are at the epicentre of the terrorist world. rightly or wrongly they are the catalyst for most hijackings by Islamic Nutcases! What do they do? Carry armed and HIGHLY trained 'sky marshals'(Mosad chappies at a guess).
The ONLY way, IMHO, you are going to battle this proble in a credible manner is to have HIGHLY trained 'airborne snipers'.
We have regulations which dictate minimum F/As per number of seats, perhaps the same will need to be done for 'airborne security'.
No-one will no how many, where they are seated in the cabin, or ANYthing else about them. Lets face it, how many times would you even have to displace paying pax?
This ONE move would virtually stop hijacks dead,pun intended, in their tracks. The cost is miniscule compared to the overcomplicated crap half of the posts on this(and other threads) are suggesting!
These people already exist and are trained to the required levels, they're called SAS!
All this **** about landing a jet with a blood bath going on in the back 'cause we're not opening the door is crap.
Redesign nothing! Let little Johnny and his sister come up and wonder at the magic....I WANT to be sexually harrased by the girlies in the back....Lock me in my own atmosphere with a cut lunch for X hours of zero communication with my crew and you can shove this job right up your.....!!!!!
CHUCK
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Hey boys, get real.
If you get a call from the cabin and somebody is telling you if you do not open the door within 5 sec he starts killing cabin crew and passengers, you must be a realy tough guy not opening the door.
By the way on Swissair and El Al flights you can buy swiss army knifes and Leatherman on board.
stay safe
If you get a call from the cabin and somebody is telling you if you do not open the door within 5 sec he starts killing cabin crew and passengers, you must be a realy tough guy not opening the door.
By the way on Swissair and El Al flights you can buy swiss army knifes and Leatherman on board.
stay safe
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As Hank Rogers says: Come on guys, get real!!
All this searching for knives and panic all around is a bit ridiculous. I mean it's good that we make our thoughts about security and take appropriate measures. However, to fall from one extreme to the other makes no sense either.
Cockpit doors closed all the time. I don't like the idea. How's about the whole topic of CRM (remember it's called CREW Resource Management, not COCKPIT Resource Management)!
Also the big discussions about the knives at the moment. If we can remove all the knives on an airliner then what's about all the other items (glas bottles, scissors from the first aid kit and so on...)??? I guess if they want to bring an airliner down, it will be always possible. As you have seen their imagination is sadly always beyond ours.
I think the industry has to evaluate the whole situation carefully and then take appropriate measures. I just hope they don't overreact now. However, don't take me wrong, I agree that this was a horrible act of terrorism which has to be punished.
All this searching for knives and panic all around is a bit ridiculous. I mean it's good that we make our thoughts about security and take appropriate measures. However, to fall from one extreme to the other makes no sense either.
Cockpit doors closed all the time. I don't like the idea. How's about the whole topic of CRM (remember it's called CREW Resource Management, not COCKPIT Resource Management)!
Also the big discussions about the knives at the moment. If we can remove all the knives on an airliner then what's about all the other items (glas bottles, scissors from the first aid kit and so on...)??? I guess if they want to bring an airliner down, it will be always possible. As you have seen their imagination is sadly always beyond ours.
I think the industry has to evaluate the whole situation carefully and then take appropriate measures. I just hope they don't overreact now. However, don't take me wrong, I agree that this was a horrible act of terrorism which has to be punished.
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Much as I enjoy entertaining visitors on my flight deck, the only way to defeat this problem is 1)inpenetrable flight deck doors (I believe El Al already has these), 2) a video camera in the cabin with a monitor in the flight deck, and 3) on-board security (again, I believe El Al already do this).
Crews need to be trained to be assertive here... if a terrorist is cutting Cabin Crew throats, when you open the door you can virtually guarantee that you and all the pax will be dead in short order... NEVER open the door. Depressurise the aircraft, do some aerobatics, whatever... but don't open the door. Just land ASAP. Once terrorists know that they will be physically unable to gain control of the aircraft, the problem recedes.
As many, many experts have said over the last few days, it is impossible to defeat the determined terrorist by prevention alone. Sorry Danny, but on this one you are well wide of the mark.
Crews need to be trained to be assertive here... if a terrorist is cutting Cabin Crew throats, when you open the door you can virtually guarantee that you and all the pax will be dead in short order... NEVER open the door. Depressurise the aircraft, do some aerobatics, whatever... but don't open the door. Just land ASAP. Once terrorists know that they will be physically unable to gain control of the aircraft, the problem recedes.
As many, many experts have said over the last few days, it is impossible to defeat the determined terrorist by prevention alone. Sorry Danny, but on this one you are well wide of the mark.
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(Now I appreciate that I might be falling into the trap of believing what I read in the newspaper), but I have to say that I was more than a little surprised to learn that two airlines of the calibre and standing of UA and AA appear to have had a procedure in place that had a pilot going into the cabin to intervene in an altercation between passengers and cabin crew. (“Pilot ‘lured’ from flight deck, then attacked by hijacker.”)
In my little airline, (a lot younger and with far fewer resources and experience than either of those two great airlines), it has been SOP for years now that when airborne, a pilot will NOT intervene in any problem in the cabin under any circumstances. This procedure wasn’t introduced primarily for the hijack situation, (although it was a consideration), but more for the air rage one. (Very sensibly, I think), the last thing our management and flight safety people wanted to see was a pilot wearing a bunch of fives from an angry, perhaps drunken pax and then having to stagger back to the cockpit – if he was still capable of doing so – to attempt to fly the aircraft.
This whole sorry mess might (and hopefully will) bring about a massive sea change in the attitude of the American public to litigation and that ‘someone must pay’ for every discomfort or frustration they suffer. Not a month before this, an American court awarded a woman 1.25 million dollars compensation for the ‘trauma’ she suffered as a passenger on a Delta flight where the crew did an exemplary job in successfully landing a stricken aircraft suffering major technical malfunctions in truly horrible weather conditions. I await, hopefully in vain, to see the myriad lawsuits that will surface after the current WTC tragedy.
Maybe this tragedy will convince Americans of something many people in less fortunate parts of the world have known for a very long time – sh-t happens, sometimes inexplicably, often tragically. Yes, safety and preventative procedures can and should be tightened in view of what’s just happened. But to all those coming out with sometimes sensible, sometimes ridiculous suggestions on how to slam the proverbial door behind THIS particular bolted horse, get it into your heads what all the experts will tell you should you ask. There is no way in the world short of putting each and every one of us in a steel box and never moving from it that you can stop an assassin who is willing to die in carrying out his mission.
I think that all of us, if we want to continue in the business of moving people from A to B, are going to have to face the fact of our mortality a little more consciously than we have perhaps been doing to date. (And so will the people we move from A to B.) There are desperate, not always crazy, people out there who have learned all too clearly over the last week, if they didn’t know it before, that they can make their ‘statement’ with relative ease if they are willing to die in the attempt and we have to face the sorry fact that short of strangling our transport industry to the point where we will all be walking to wherever we want to go, we’re going to have to live with it.
In my little airline, (a lot younger and with far fewer resources and experience than either of those two great airlines), it has been SOP for years now that when airborne, a pilot will NOT intervene in any problem in the cabin under any circumstances. This procedure wasn’t introduced primarily for the hijack situation, (although it was a consideration), but more for the air rage one. (Very sensibly, I think), the last thing our management and flight safety people wanted to see was a pilot wearing a bunch of fives from an angry, perhaps drunken pax and then having to stagger back to the cockpit – if he was still capable of doing so – to attempt to fly the aircraft.
This whole sorry mess might (and hopefully will) bring about a massive sea change in the attitude of the American public to litigation and that ‘someone must pay’ for every discomfort or frustration they suffer. Not a month before this, an American court awarded a woman 1.25 million dollars compensation for the ‘trauma’ she suffered as a passenger on a Delta flight where the crew did an exemplary job in successfully landing a stricken aircraft suffering major technical malfunctions in truly horrible weather conditions. I await, hopefully in vain, to see the myriad lawsuits that will surface after the current WTC tragedy.
Maybe this tragedy will convince Americans of something many people in less fortunate parts of the world have known for a very long time – sh-t happens, sometimes inexplicably, often tragically. Yes, safety and preventative procedures can and should be tightened in view of what’s just happened. But to all those coming out with sometimes sensible, sometimes ridiculous suggestions on how to slam the proverbial door behind THIS particular bolted horse, get it into your heads what all the experts will tell you should you ask. There is no way in the world short of putting each and every one of us in a steel box and never moving from it that you can stop an assassin who is willing to die in carrying out his mission.
I think that all of us, if we want to continue in the business of moving people from A to B, are going to have to face the fact of our mortality a little more consciously than we have perhaps been doing to date. (And so will the people we move from A to B.) There are desperate, not always crazy, people out there who have learned all too clearly over the last week, if they didn’t know it before, that they can make their ‘statement’ with relative ease if they are willing to die in the attempt and we have to face the sorry fact that short of strangling our transport industry to the point where we will all be walking to wherever we want to go, we’re going to have to live with it.
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Whether its terrorists or just plain air rage, these people are going to slip through the cracks here and there and get on the airplanes, no matter how good the security is on the ground. You lock several hundred people up in a cramped tube with personnel that are ill equipped to handle a seriously violent episode, and its only a matter of time before something disasterous happens. We have security people at bars, sporting events, etc, why not on aircraft?!?! Lets start immediately by putting an armed guard in the jumpseat and at least one in the cabin. People who's sole purpose is to deal with life threatening situations and who have the ability to keep these kook bastards in control as a last line of defense. There
have been too many incidents of people flipping out and assaulting crew members,
this last tragedy was the final straw!!!!
have been too many incidents of people flipping out and assaulting crew members,
this last tragedy was the final straw!!!!
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Wiley
My company has recently adopted the same SOP, for the same reason.
I have seen it posted somewhere, and think it not a bad first aid measure, to depressurise the aircraft in the event of an attempted takeover (assuming above about 25000ft or so).
What next? I suppose maintain altitude until overhead, then a 2G spiral to final.... I really don't know. Any prior warning from the cabin would be useful, in any event, so a stronger door would help.
My company has recently adopted the same SOP, for the same reason.
I have seen it posted somewhere, and think it not a bad first aid measure, to depressurise the aircraft in the event of an attempted takeover (assuming above about 25000ft or so).
What next? I suppose maintain altitude until overhead, then a 2G spiral to final.... I really don't know. Any prior warning from the cabin would be useful, in any event, so a stronger door would help.
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You cannot totally remove the threat of a determined terrorist on an aircraft. The very least you can do is minimise it. Better cockpit security is only part of the answer, as is better ground vetting of passengers. At least two sky marshalls, or in this country, gentlemen from Hereford, as has happened in the past (not always with the knowledge of the flight crew)is also effecive in reducing risk. There are effective ways to prevent passengers bringing metal knives aboard, but sadly in this day and age there are alternatives to metal blades if you have the connevtions and the money, which these terrorists obviously do and as any US policeman who has been to a Danny Innocento demonstration will attest, a knife is more dangerous than a gun in an enclosed space.
Scalextric for Men
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Im what is known as self loading freight.
It is the view forward from the flightdeck that interests me.
Why not have an video camera, so that we can see, that which you aircrew have paid, £/$/time/study to carry us safely over.
Not all of us want the inflight film and adverts. I was once priveliged to be standing behind The Boss, when he said "We are flying over The Cherbourg peninsula."
My suggestion: Have some of the screen inflight status reports with real time video images.
Good wishes to all
It is the view forward from the flightdeck that interests me.
Why not have an video camera, so that we can see, that which you aircrew have paid, £/$/time/study to carry us safely over.
Not all of us want the inflight film and adverts. I was once priveliged to be standing behind The Boss, when he said "We are flying over The Cherbourg peninsula."
My suggestion: Have some of the screen inflight status reports with real time video images.
Good wishes to all
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As a North Sea Helicopter Commander, we have an open cockpit and are unable to close it other than with a curtain. I am seriously thinking about moving to fixed wing, but this whole incident and jaded my view.
Having been a guest on the flight deck, I totally understand not wanting public access. Somebody mentioned "you have to be strong to deny access when crew members are being executed", well as an ex police officer....you do have to be strong, or look what happens.
Don't let them on board in the first place, talk to El Al on how to do that.
Safe flying to you all!
Having been a guest on the flight deck, I totally understand not wanting public access. Somebody mentioned "you have to be strong to deny access when crew members are being executed", well as an ex police officer....you do have to be strong, or look what happens.
Don't let them on board in the first place, talk to El Al on how to do that.
Safe flying to you all!
I don't think we will see any changes for some considerable time.
Most likely soon will be a modification to current Hi-jack SOP's whereby the current rules apply unless and until the first attempt is made to remove a pilot from the seat - then its extinguisher and CSD time.
I don't see the relevance of flightdeck visits or door locking when the door is still fragile.
Let us recall that in the WTC incident the terrorists did not sneak anything on board other than a male wash kit. All the gate security in the world would fail.
Weapons on board can be manufactured and lets face it - 3 fit strong blokes snapping the cabin crew necks is no different than stabbing or slotting their throats. So, you cannot stop the people nor the means from being on board.
That only really leaves the flightdeck door. I can't see a worldwide fleet modification being ordered due to cost and practicality. On the smaller jets - lets say a common Embraer 145 - there simply will not be the space to install a new wall, galley and toilet. If you don't modify EVERY jet then the all you are doing is making the few remaining in the old format extremely tempting targets - thus people will not fly on them, nor indeed, pilot them.
I think a better short term and feasible move would be:
1) Improve cockpit security by beefing up the current doors and intalling cctv of the cabin.
2) Improve mandatory comms on board so continuous digital flightdeck audio is gauranteed on open mike to airline ops.
3) Utilise current air defence assets to ensure domestic 24/7 CAP with standing orders allowing downing of airliners.
The combination of 1,2&3 should allow a reasonably confident decision to be made that the aircraft is now hostile. It can be shot down. No target is hit. It would be therefore better to use a bomb on board as is the case now.
The madatory upgrade in comms can be used to install new efficiencies such as radios you can't cross on, ACARS, in flight medical relay, pax communications/email/web, ATC clearances et al.
At least this way 'we' benefit operationally from the cost.
WWW
Most likely soon will be a modification to current Hi-jack SOP's whereby the current rules apply unless and until the first attempt is made to remove a pilot from the seat - then its extinguisher and CSD time.
I don't see the relevance of flightdeck visits or door locking when the door is still fragile.
Let us recall that in the WTC incident the terrorists did not sneak anything on board other than a male wash kit. All the gate security in the world would fail.
Weapons on board can be manufactured and lets face it - 3 fit strong blokes snapping the cabin crew necks is no different than stabbing or slotting their throats. So, you cannot stop the people nor the means from being on board.
That only really leaves the flightdeck door. I can't see a worldwide fleet modification being ordered due to cost and practicality. On the smaller jets - lets say a common Embraer 145 - there simply will not be the space to install a new wall, galley and toilet. If you don't modify EVERY jet then the all you are doing is making the few remaining in the old format extremely tempting targets - thus people will not fly on them, nor indeed, pilot them.
I think a better short term and feasible move would be:
1) Improve cockpit security by beefing up the current doors and intalling cctv of the cabin.
2) Improve mandatory comms on board so continuous digital flightdeck audio is gauranteed on open mike to airline ops.
3) Utilise current air defence assets to ensure domestic 24/7 CAP with standing orders allowing downing of airliners.
The combination of 1,2&3 should allow a reasonably confident decision to be made that the aircraft is now hostile. It can be shot down. No target is hit. It would be therefore better to use a bomb on board as is the case now.
The madatory upgrade in comms can be used to install new efficiencies such as radios you can't cross on, ACARS, in flight medical relay, pax communications/email/web, ATC clearances et al.
At least this way 'we' benefit operationally from the cost.
WWW