Air France strike 6-9 Sept
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Tamarama beach
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to your figures we actually need a 257 000 Euros raise.
17 % raise is extremely reasonable.
A tad acerbic ? Just clarifying a few distorted facts.
By the way your media sucks as much as ours by the look of it.
Even Chapter 11 US Air pilots or " on the brink of ... UAL " are much better off than we are.
I'd be interested to read BA, KLM and Luftansa figures on that particular matter.
Simplicity itself:
Senior Long Haul Captain
Short haul Captain
Days on stick
Before income taxes please.
17 % raise is extremely reasonable.
A tad acerbic ? Just clarifying a few distorted facts.
By the way your media sucks as much as ours by the look of it.
Even Chapter 11 US Air pilots or " on the brink of ... UAL " are much better off than we are.
I'd be interested to read BA, KLM and Luftansa figures on that particular matter.
Simplicity itself:
Senior Long Haul Captain
Short haul Captain
Days on stick
Before income taxes please.
short flights long nights
wallabie, writes like an Australian, talks like an Australian, has a name that is Australian but is an Air France Pilot mmmmmmmmmmmm
Self Loathing Froggy
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: elsewhere
Age: 18
Posts: 546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wallabie, writes like an Australian
As to the compagny's performance
G'day mate !
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wallabie :
Figures for BA (based on one euro = £0.67)
Most senior long haul captain (24 years) - approx 135000 euros, but the very highest earners (trainers, top seniority) may make close to the AF figure.
Senior long haul captain (20 years) - 115000 euros
Mid-seniority short haul captain - approx 88000 euros.
New FO - 35000 euros
Average short haul working 18/20 days
UK income tax 40%
London now the most expensive city to live in in Europe.
Property prices rising by 20% annually.
Sub-inflation pay rises for several years.
Figures for BA (based on one euro = £0.67)
Most senior long haul captain (24 years) - approx 135000 euros, but the very highest earners (trainers, top seniority) may make close to the AF figure.
Senior long haul captain (20 years) - 115000 euros
Mid-seniority short haul captain - approx 88000 euros.
New FO - 35000 euros
Average short haul working 18/20 days
UK income tax 40%
London now the most expensive city to live in in Europe.
Property prices rising by 20% annually.
Sub-inflation pay rises for several years.
Last edited by Hand Solo; 8th Sep 2002 at 22:28.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: LPL
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wallabie! More Bounce to your crews!
Good on you and all your colleagues mate!
It is great to see there are some pilots left in the world with some BALLS!
Ignore the naysayers and the wimps that inhabit these pages until they have a few thousand hours under their belts and finally get their collective heads out of their collectively agreeable a@ses!
For too long we have been pushed and pushed and every time the management fools screw us a little bit harder we sit back and say "it's OK.. all for productivity, blah, sycophantic, wimpish, blah"
STAND UP FOR YOURSELVES YOU SPINELESS GIMPS!
Here are a bunch of pilots who have decided that enough is enough, they have realised that every time you bend over willingly or without a real fight that 'the faceless management suits' have got you cowed just that little bit more. The God of Profit is running roughshod over your right to a fair deal and share of what you earn instead of being funnelled into the pockets of deskbound parasites. It is the workers who make the money for an airline, not the fat cat execs in their shiny grey suits with their shiny grey smiles full of platitudes, profit and loss statements and various other BS.
What a sad state we find oursleves in
There was a time when pilots were leaders! So good on the AF crews, solidarity in these days is a thing to be lauded!
Wallabie, All the best and more power to you and your Band of Brothers! Screw them to the wall and make them bleed! It has been the other way around for too long.
It is great to see there are some pilots left in the world with some BALLS!
Ignore the naysayers and the wimps that inhabit these pages until they have a few thousand hours under their belts and finally get their collective heads out of their collectively agreeable a@ses!
For too long we have been pushed and pushed and every time the management fools screw us a little bit harder we sit back and say "it's OK.. all for productivity, blah, sycophantic, wimpish, blah"
STAND UP FOR YOURSELVES YOU SPINELESS GIMPS!
Here are a bunch of pilots who have decided that enough is enough, they have realised that every time you bend over willingly or without a real fight that 'the faceless management suits' have got you cowed just that little bit more. The God of Profit is running roughshod over your right to a fair deal and share of what you earn instead of being funnelled into the pockets of deskbound parasites. It is the workers who make the money for an airline, not the fat cat execs in their shiny grey suits with their shiny grey smiles full of platitudes, profit and loss statements and various other BS.
What a sad state we find oursleves in
There was a time when pilots were leaders! So good on the AF crews, solidarity in these days is a thing to be lauded!
Wallabie, All the best and more power to you and your Band of Brothers! Screw them to the wall and make them bleed! It has been the other way around for too long.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Tamarama beach
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hand Solo
Thanks for the information, I take it these figures include per diem. Mine did.
Also bear in mind that you guys retire at 55 and according to what I know, your pension scheme is a lot better than ours. I think our unions figured out that between pay during type rating training and pension, the difference with KLM was round about 500 000 euros over 30 years. Your salaries may be a bit lower but overall you seem to have a more financially rewarding career.
Income taxes ?? Well, we're not exactly known to be a fiscal paradise, exept if you are president or cabinet minister, then the jar is all yours.
We have a lot of toys to pay for : bullet trains, NHS, giving a 70 % raise to cabinet ministers so they don't stick they hand into the coockie jar ( do not laugh, that was the very official reason ) .......etc
Nils,thanks ever so much for kind and graphic support but you will forgive me for restraining myself. I am very much in the screwing business whenever fate decides to be generous with me but just not with grey suit executives, even more so when they are boys ! YUK and triple YUK !
I am however afraid that this stunt, no matter how glamorous it may have looked, will end up with management throwing us a handfull of peanuts and we won't even be able to sack them !
Lufthansa / KLM boys and girls, be good sports and spit those figures out, unless of course the're so juicy that you feel ashamed in these hard times of need! According to Air France benchmarking, KLM senior Captain make more than ours.
By the way, unions and mangement are batting numbers back and forth through the media when the European airlines association is sitting tight on its a..e with all the right benchmarking figures, refusing to release them. It has to be extremely embarrassing for somebody.
SOP, one has to make a living but I'd rather drive the jetcat across the harbour !
Thanks for the information, I take it these figures include per diem. Mine did.
Also bear in mind that you guys retire at 55 and according to what I know, your pension scheme is a lot better than ours. I think our unions figured out that between pay during type rating training and pension, the difference with KLM was round about 500 000 euros over 30 years. Your salaries may be a bit lower but overall you seem to have a more financially rewarding career.
Income taxes ?? Well, we're not exactly known to be a fiscal paradise, exept if you are president or cabinet minister, then the jar is all yours.
We have a lot of toys to pay for : bullet trains, NHS, giving a 70 % raise to cabinet ministers so they don't stick they hand into the coockie jar ( do not laugh, that was the very official reason ) .......etc
Nils,thanks ever so much for kind and graphic support but you will forgive me for restraining myself. I am very much in the screwing business whenever fate decides to be generous with me but just not with grey suit executives, even more so when they are boys ! YUK and triple YUK !
I am however afraid that this stunt, no matter how glamorous it may have looked, will end up with management throwing us a handfull of peanuts and we won't even be able to sack them !
Lufthansa / KLM boys and girls, be good sports and spit those figures out, unless of course the're so juicy that you feel ashamed in these hard times of need! According to Air France benchmarking, KLM senior Captain make more than ours.
By the way, unions and mangement are batting numbers back and forth through the media when the European airlines association is sitting tight on its a..e with all the right benchmarking figures, refusing to release them. It has to be extremely embarrassing for somebody.
SOP, one has to make a living but I'd rather drive the jetcat across the harbour !
Last edited by wallabie; 9th Sep 2002 at 09:51.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: FL350
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LH copilot B737 takes home about 3500€ all in!!
No that much compared to AF I would say! KlM as well gives more to its pilots.....Only SAS does worse....
(And SN off course when they still existed but hey....who cares anyway!)
No that much compared to AF I would say! KlM as well gives more to its pilots.....Only SAS does worse....
(And SN off course when they still existed but hey....who cares anyway!)
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wallabie
Hand Solos figures are a little on the low side. The more realistic figures are;
Senior 744 captain; 165,000 euros
Junior 744 captain; 125,000 euros
Senior 744 F/O; 120,000 euros
Junior 744 F/O; 80,000 euros
Senior 744 trainer; 225,000 euros
757 Captain; 105,000 euros
757 F/O; 55,000 euros
The 40% tax rate is only reached after you have earned about 50,000 euros. Up to that figure there is a varable rate, with the average being about 20%
Hand Solos figures are a little on the low side. The more realistic figures are;
Senior 744 captain; 165,000 euros
Junior 744 captain; 125,000 euros
Senior 744 F/O; 120,000 euros
Junior 744 F/O; 80,000 euros
Senior 744 trainer; 225,000 euros
757 Captain; 105,000 euros
757 F/O; 55,000 euros
The 40% tax rate is only reached after you have earned about 50,000 euros. Up to that figure there is a varable rate, with the average being about 20%
Last edited by P22; 9th Sep 2002 at 13:26.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Tamarama beach
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P22
Thanks a lot for this very interesting piece of information. How come Hand solo was so light handed ???
Knowing KLM is well above what you just gave me, my mouth is watering. Why didn't I learn Dutch !!!???
Lodestar, our baby bus F/O's make about the same. As an F/O, the big break comes when getting on the 400 and a lot of guys chose to stay there to the point where the compagny wants to make short haul experience mandatory if you want to get a long command in order to get the mices off the cheese they're sitting on. Personally I think that sucks big time.
KLM, I keep my ears to the ground and can't hear a thing !
Heathrow Director, will you be around your scope tommorrow around tea time ?
Thanks a lot for this very interesting piece of information. How come Hand solo was so light handed ???
Knowing KLM is well above what you just gave me, my mouth is watering. Why didn't I learn Dutch !!!???
Lodestar, our baby bus F/O's make about the same. As an F/O, the big break comes when getting on the 400 and a lot of guys chose to stay there to the point where the compagny wants to make short haul experience mandatory if you want to get a long command in order to get the mices off the cheese they're sitting on. Personally I think that sucks big time.
KLM, I keep my ears to the ground and can't hear a thing !
Heathrow Director, will you be around your scope tommorrow around tea time ?
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Europe
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My dear "maxalt",
You seem to be a lovely fella... I particularily enjoyed your remark about male models. I guess my advice to you would be to not always believe that a handle accurately depicts the person hiding behind it. In this case it appears that mine is bigger than yours, about 7-8 times bigger ...
Not that it matter though, your remarks makes little sense. If employees at BA, LH or the other companies you mentioned did strike as often as they do at AF, I would certainly not be flying with them either. The point is though that they don't and that is the point you missed. It seems that I have plenty of options when deciding to buy a ticket after all! And I persist in claiming that I do not feel much sympathy for their cause since they make their point way too often.
You seem to be a lovely fella... I particularily enjoyed your remark about male models. I guess my advice to you would be to not always believe that a handle accurately depicts the person hiding behind it. In this case it appears that mine is bigger than yours, about 7-8 times bigger ...
Not that it matter though, your remarks makes little sense. If employees at BA, LH or the other companies you mentioned did strike as often as they do at AF, I would certainly not be flying with them either. The point is though that they don't and that is the point you missed. It seems that I have plenty of options when deciding to buy a ticket after all! And I persist in claiming that I do not feel much sympathy for their cause since they make their point way too often.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: BHX
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pretty Boy,
It is because of the likes of you that airline management is squeezing the last drop of blood out of guys like us. The balance will be redressed but it will take time. Some airlines have suffered due to top-heavy and bureaucratic empires that have been bulit when times have been good. The industry is changing and is re-adjusting but why should we suffer so you can have your cheap (at a loss) fare ?
I don't know what you are doing on this site because you sound like a passenger to me. Air France pilots like everyone else are deserving of an increase in their standard of living. BA's pilots like most of the U.K. industry have suffered in recent years as a result of market conditions and poor management. Bad management decisions result in losses, bad pilot decisions result in crashes. And before you come back with crap about "well wait till things pick up before you threaten strikes," we have done and it hasn't materialised.
If I was you, I'd get back to picking your cheap fares on the internet cos you'll being paying a fair fare in time and I for one can't wait. You're naive if you think low cost operators will keep their fares low once they have driven the competition away. A whole load of Airline R.I.P.s is testament to that.
It is because of the likes of you that airline management is squeezing the last drop of blood out of guys like us. The balance will be redressed but it will take time. Some airlines have suffered due to top-heavy and bureaucratic empires that have been bulit when times have been good. The industry is changing and is re-adjusting but why should we suffer so you can have your cheap (at a loss) fare ?
I don't know what you are doing on this site because you sound like a passenger to me. Air France pilots like everyone else are deserving of an increase in their standard of living. BA's pilots like most of the U.K. industry have suffered in recent years as a result of market conditions and poor management. Bad management decisions result in losses, bad pilot decisions result in crashes. And before you come back with crap about "well wait till things pick up before you threaten strikes," we have done and it hasn't materialised.
If I was you, I'd get back to picking your cheap fares on the internet cos you'll being paying a fair fare in time and I for one can't wait. You're naive if you think low cost operators will keep their fares low once they have driven the competition away. A whole load of Airline R.I.P.s is testament to that.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Problem is Lima, that if the low cost airlines raise their prices they are no longer low cost and therefore another outfit undercuts them. The cushy days of old are unfortunately over, the major carriers are in big trouble, the bottom line is that you can't hold back the tide.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Europe
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"LIMA"
I'm not a pax but a jumbo driver, not that it matters much, the subject remains the same. AF is on strike or threatens to strike every month or so. I'm not against anyone trying to improve their work conditions or their salary (in fact I wish them good luck) but don't expect me to travel with a company that I'm not sure will take me to the destination I bought a ticket for. Twice my family have been stuck somewhere because of this problem. Not fun when traveling with kids I can assure you.
Sure, like most other people I'm looking for a cheap ticket when I need to travel somewhere but I expect the airline to fullfill their end of the bargain once the deal is done whether it being a low-cost operator or not.
And by the way, even pilots travel privately once in a while and our outfit have lousy ID deals so I have to rely on regular tickets. Perhaps I should round up the guys for a weekend strike.
And "maxalt"; I can't help being pretty
I'm not a pax but a jumbo driver, not that it matters much, the subject remains the same. AF is on strike or threatens to strike every month or so. I'm not against anyone trying to improve their work conditions or their salary (in fact I wish them good luck) but don't expect me to travel with a company that I'm not sure will take me to the destination I bought a ticket for. Twice my family have been stuck somewhere because of this problem. Not fun when traveling with kids I can assure you.
Sure, like most other people I'm looking for a cheap ticket when I need to travel somewhere but I expect the airline to fullfill their end of the bargain once the deal is done whether it being a low-cost operator or not.
And by the way, even pilots travel privately once in a while and our outfit have lousy ID deals so I have to rely on regular tickets. Perhaps I should round up the guys for a weekend strike.
And "maxalt"; I can't help being pretty
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Tamarama beach
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now let me see Dr Watson :
Evidences show lousy ID deal, Jumbo driver ??? Seems to hurt in the back side when sitting too long and talking c..p under the influence of toush pain. Wouldn't it be that you " drive " for a freight compagny based in a little fiscal paradise tucked between Belgium and Germany and known for laundering drug money or one of those run down Air A.....A jumbos snapping flying deals where ever they can ?? If so, I understand your frustration mate .
When was the last time you read a newspaper ?? Must have been unwrapping your fish and chips diner.
A strike every month ?? Good God ! I am shivering at the thought of having blindly crossed the picket line so often.
If you get stranded when the strike was called 2 weeks before it started ( because it is the law ) it either means you have utter faith in the power of negociation or are...................let me choose carefully without being too abrupt....................I give up !! Just watch the bloody tele and like the lot of us.............stay home !
I take it that according to your post, Air France fares being cheaper than your " lousy " ID deals this truly make us a " low cost " airline with first class service !!
Ryanair, Not so Easy, be afraid, be very afraid !
Evidences show lousy ID deal, Jumbo driver ??? Seems to hurt in the back side when sitting too long and talking c..p under the influence of toush pain. Wouldn't it be that you " drive " for a freight compagny based in a little fiscal paradise tucked between Belgium and Germany and known for laundering drug money or one of those run down Air A.....A jumbos snapping flying deals where ever they can ?? If so, I understand your frustration mate .
When was the last time you read a newspaper ?? Must have been unwrapping your fish and chips diner.
A strike every month ?? Good God ! I am shivering at the thought of having blindly crossed the picket line so often.
If you get stranded when the strike was called 2 weeks before it started ( because it is the law ) it either means you have utter faith in the power of negociation or are...................let me choose carefully without being too abrupt....................I give up !! Just watch the bloody tele and like the lot of us.............stay home !
I take it that according to your post, Air France fares being cheaper than your " lousy " ID deals this truly make us a " low cost " airline with first class service !!
Ryanair, Not so Easy, be afraid, be very afraid !
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Europe
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"wallabie" et al,
Obviously my opinions are stiring a lot of animosity. Where you or I happen to fly is not really important, at least not to me.
I believe that if you would do your math and look in your old newspapers (if they have 'em where you live?...) you would find that the different professions within AF (pilots, C/A's or any other profession required to operate aircrafts) are indeed threatning with strike more often than in any other company. Since most tickets are bought weeks or months before actual departure, a threat of strike during your actual departure date is, at least to me, unnerving.
In any case, I'm sure most readers are getting bored right about now (I know I am) so I let you guys book your tickets with AF. This way we don't have to meet which probably is the best solution anyway. Ta ta
Obviously my opinions are stiring a lot of animosity. Where you or I happen to fly is not really important, at least not to me.
I believe that if you would do your math and look in your old newspapers (if they have 'em where you live?...) you would find that the different professions within AF (pilots, C/A's or any other profession required to operate aircrafts) are indeed threatning with strike more often than in any other company. Since most tickets are bought weeks or months before actual departure, a threat of strike during your actual departure date is, at least to me, unnerving.
In any case, I'm sure most readers are getting bored right about now (I know I am) so I let you guys book your tickets with AF. This way we don't have to meet which probably is the best solution anyway. Ta ta
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: BHX
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No I don't think they'll be crying either.
Seriph - fair point but I'm not ready just yet to accept an ongoing shafting until the career that cost me £50k to attain is denigrated further to the status of a train driver (because it is not far away now). Good luck to the guys at AF.
Seriph - fair point but I'm not ready just yet to accept an ongoing shafting until the career that cost me £50k to attain is denigrated further to the status of a train driver (because it is not far away now). Good luck to the guys at AF.