Virgin flight from Manchester to New York cancelled moments before take off
Still confused by this. What was missing? A ‘decorative’ covering that is on top of the actual fastening device that was still in place? Or was the whole fastening device missing?
Many moons ago, I was in an office adjacent to the flight line. Out of the corner of my eye, I thought I saw something as an aircraft taxied by, but as I wasn’t really looking, was so quick and I wasn’t sure, I let it go.
I later saw the aircraft return and noticed that the front door handle (it was a Sea King) was protruding. It then occurred to me that had someone leant against the door whilst in flight, it could have possibly opened with disastrous consequences. It still haunts me that I said nothing.
From that point on, if I saw or suspected something , I always alerted someone. It doesn’t matter how insignificant, it’s always better to check. I know that some people can feel foolish if it’s found not to be an issue, but foolish trumps remorse any day.
I later saw the aircraft return and noticed that the front door handle (it was a Sea King) was protruding. It then occurred to me that had someone leant against the door whilst in flight, it could have possibly opened with disastrous consequences. It still haunts me that I said nothing.
From that point on, if I saw or suspected something , I always alerted someone. It doesn’t matter how insignificant, it’s always better to check. I know that some people can feel foolish if it’s found not to be an issue, but foolish trumps remorse any day.
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Looks like 4 countersink head screws* missing....screwing 'blind' ( I.e. no access the other side) into panel nuts or threaded inserts which can become damaged with frequent screwing/ unscrewing)...* perhaps the type with a plastic locking strip incorporated
https://i2-prod.manchestereveningnew..._escenic-4.jpg
https://i2-prod.manchestereveningnew..._escenic-4.jpg
Had a departure from Jersey (A319) once delayed by a Blue Islands ATR Pilot who announced that we had a hatch open as we taxied past them on stand. Fire Service came out to have a look and after discussion with what they were seeing we determined it was simply the outflow valve in its correct position. Whilst I certainly do advocate people helping out with observations, I really wouldn’t have imagined such an educated person (ie a commercial pilot who really should have some sort of idea what he was looking at) wasting our time and fuel with that one.
A quote from the article: "The safety of our customers and crew is always our top priority and this was not compromised at any point." This sort of trite, fallacious nonsense trips so easily off the tongue of the automatons answering questions these days. It isn't true or sincere, and only a fool would believe it. It is merely specious 'filler', to take up space and/or fill time when questions are asked. It is enough to make you vomit.
Once written (by a journalist) : "Safety is our first priority" statements generally follow an event which proves that it isn't.
Tabs please !
Having landed back at Las Vegas from a trip to the Grand Canyon, I noticed liquid dripping from the starboard engine. I spoke quietly to the cabin crew and pointed at the growing puddle, which had now developed a distinct rainbow sheen. "That's condensation" came reply (good effort, well done). Given that the humidity was probably around 30% at best, I suggested that they inform the flight deck that the other engine showed no signs of condensation.
One dull day at Heathrow I was alarmed to see a hole in the wing, but said nuffin.
After getting above the clouds, I could see the black textured carbon fiber in the "hole" - so just some missing paint.
Glad I said nuffin!
After getting above the clouds, I could see the black textured carbon fiber in the "hole" - so just some missing paint.
Glad I said nuffin!
Quite so. However PR departments have discovered that when they say it, news editors always put it in, first, and it fills half the space available for the airline's response. So it's there at the beginning of their press response handbook.
Once written (by a journalist) : "Safety is our first priority" statements generally follow an event which proves that it isn't.
Once written (by a journalist) : "Safety is our first priority" statements generally follow an event which proves that it isn't.
I understand Aircraft are legally permitted to fly with known defects using the Aircraft MEL/CDL however these should not be confused with one another
While the MEL describes the limitations of aircraft operation in case of a system being inoperative/having malfunctioned (e.g. Engine, APU, Generator, emergency door slide etc, the CDL deals with situations where external parts of an aircraft are missing/fallen off (e.g. fairings, aerodynamic seals or panels).
Definitions
A minimum equipment list (MEL) is a list which provides for the operation of aircraft, subject to specified conditions, with particular equipment inoperative (which is) prepared by an operator in conformity with, or more restrictive than, the MMEL established for the aircraft type.
A configuration deviation list (CDL) is a list, established by the organisation responsible for the type design with the approval of the State of Design, which identifies any external parts of an aircraft type which may be missing at the commencement of a flight, and which contains, where necessary, any information on associated operating limitations and performance correction.
The CDL is usually prepared by the aircraft manufacturer and is part of the Aircraft Flight Manual (AFM)
The CDL is a listing of regulator-approved non-structural external parts that may be missing but the airplane remains airworthy. To qualify an item onto the CDL, a restrictive set of conditions must be met, e.g.:
- • The effect of the missing part upon adjacent structure and systems must be evaluated.
- • The effect upon airplane performance must be measured.
- • The combined effect upon the aircraft when more than one CDL item is present must be determined (i.e. the effect of a combination of items missing).
Aviation is one of the most regulated industries on the planet and fleets of aircraft worldwide can be grounded within a very short period of time should there be a major concern.
Context is everything
https://www.pprune.org/9136217-post37.html
Passengers in the BMA 737 which crashed on the M1 at East Midlands knew correctly which side engine had blown but weren't asked........
That Airbus manual on 'allowable' missing fasteners is very worrying ( was it written by a lawyer?)or am I being naive ...don't they use self locking screws oe even some Loctite?!!
That Airbus manual on 'allowable' missing fasteners is very worrying ( was it written by a lawyer?)or am I being naive ...don't they use self locking screws oe even some Loctite?!!
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
I see the message that 'Flight Safety is everyone's business' has now been consigned to the archives. After all, it's surely far better to ignore an observation and just hope you don't end up in a smoking hole rather than be really embarrassed for something that got overlooked by maintenance or on a pre-flight check.
/That was sarcasm in case, well, you know...
/That was sarcasm in case, well, you know...
I see the message that 'Flight Safety is everyone's business' has now been consigned to the archives. After all, it's surely far better to ignore an observation and just hope you don't end up in a smoking hole rather than be really embarrassed for something that got overlooked by maintenance or on a pre-flight check.
/That was sarcasm in case, well, you know...
/That was sarcasm in case, well, you know...
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I've only ever seen one pre flight inspection document that stated an inspection of the top of the wings from the cabin was called for. All the others are an external walk round inspection 'as visible from the ground'. I don't know Virgin Atlantic so I've no idea if there's is the former or latter.
Good point. Maybe after the walk round the pilot could walk up the aisle and check the upper wing surfaces and cabin doors.
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I was referring to the type of screw or nut with a locking ( or semi-locking?) insert ( Nyloc?).....though I guess their manufacturers suggest they aren't reused
Last person to board a twin otter I noticed the door to the fuel cap was open and the fuel cap was hanging down.
I pointed this out to the chap boarding us, and he said “oops” and went to get someone and they put it back on.
It was the manner of the “oops” and the sheepish ops chap that turned up that worried me for the rest of the flight that day.
I pointed this out to the chap boarding us, and he said “oops” and went to get someone and they put it back on.
It was the manner of the “oops” and the sheepish ops chap that turned up that worried me for the rest of the flight that day.
Not essential means that with it missing it will not effect flight safety. It may increase fuel burn slightly but that's where the CDL comes in.
Panels coming off in flight is obviously not desired which is why all attempts should be made to mitigate it. Service history tends to highlight problems, over time the preflight and daily inspections have items added to them. EG A320 Inspect the underside of the fuselage around the wing body fairings for loose/missing fasteners.
It is very common. But not necessarily dangerous.
Panels coming off in flight is obviously not desired which is why all attempts should be made to mitigate it. Service history tends to highlight problems, over time the preflight and daily inspections have items added to them. EG A320 Inspect the underside of the fuselage around the wing body fairings for loose/missing fasteners.
It is very common. But not necessarily dangerous.
Technically, its not that they are non-essentials parts. In general, when aircraft are certified and given their original Airworthiness Certificate, they are required to conform with their type design or Type Certificate and in a condition for safe flight which is the definition of airworthy. And once flying those aircraft must continue to meet those same two conditions to maintain their airworthiness.
Years ago it was determined that certain aircraft systems could be inoperative and certain parts could be missing that would not affect the "condition for safe flight" but would affect the "conform to its type certificate." So the aircraft was no longer airworthy and was grounded no matter how minor the issue may be. Enter various CAA regulatory exemptions that would allow an aircraft to remain airworthy with certain systems inop and certain parts missing. These exemptions are further detailed in scope and specifics in other regulatory documents like a Minimum Equipment List (MEL), a Nonessential Equipment and Furnishings list (NEF), or a Configuration Deviation List (CDL) as mentioned above.
Regardless, all exemptions require some sort of review of the situation and an entry and signature to be made in the aircraft record deferring the inop system or missing part in accordance with the appropriate exemption reference. So while all screws are essential for the aircraft design and conformity inspection, not all screws are "essential" for a safe flight. If that makes sense to you. Been this way for eons. And as a bit of trivia, prior to the use of the "CDL" term, these lists were better known in the industry as the "Missing Part List."
Years ago it was determined that certain aircraft systems could be inoperative and certain parts could be missing that would not affect the "condition for safe flight" but would affect the "conform to its type certificate." So the aircraft was no longer airworthy and was grounded no matter how minor the issue may be. Enter various CAA regulatory exemptions that would allow an aircraft to remain airworthy with certain systems inop and certain parts missing. These exemptions are further detailed in scope and specifics in other regulatory documents like a Minimum Equipment List (MEL), a Nonessential Equipment and Furnishings list (NEF), or a Configuration Deviation List (CDL) as mentioned above.
Regardless, all exemptions require some sort of review of the situation and an entry and signature to be made in the aircraft record deferring the inop system or missing part in accordance with the appropriate exemption reference. So while all screws are essential for the aircraft design and conformity inspection, not all screws are "essential" for a safe flight. If that makes sense to you. Been this way for eons. And as a bit of trivia, prior to the use of the "CDL" term, these lists were better known in the industry as the "Missing Part List."
More than the minimum fasteners serve as safety margin. Fasteners can come loose or break.
That extra margin means no single fastener is single point of failure.
Why do most vehicles use 5 lug wheels? 3 are enough under normal conditions. I know of cars that have had missing lug nuts for years.
The extras are there in case one is loose/lost/breaks so it's not an immediate problem.
But that reduces the margin of safety.
That extra margin means no single fastener is single point of failure.
Why do most vehicles use 5 lug wheels? 3 are enough under normal conditions. I know of cars that have had missing lug nuts for years.
The extras are there in case one is loose/lost/breaks so it's not an immediate problem.
But that reduces the margin of safety.