JFK ATC exchange
Up & down the eastern seabord you experience airport controllers who are brash, blow-hard, uncaring of your issues and generally don't seem to give a sh!t. Having operated the B744 into these destinations for many years I learnt to reply to BS requests simply with 'Unable due performance'. This would generally make the BS go away as they are venturing into subject areas of which they know zip. I was once requested to do a Carnarsie Approach with a 25kt crosswind from the right, only problem was the ATIS said 5 kts across and the wind was not offered by the tower so we blindly pressed on. When it became obvious that the mighty Jumbo was struggling around the final turn, the actual wind became evident and we threw it away, much to the annoyance of the tower. When pressed, he reported the actual wind which bore no relasionship to the ATIS. They switched runways after that as the cat was out of the bag.
But stuff comes around...... I went into Washington (IAD) one evening with an FO who didn't normally say very much. We cleared the final runway crossing and he asked the ground guy for taxy clarification. We got a sarcastic reply to the effect we should known our way around as we must have been there before.... Quick as a flash my FO came back and said "Excuse us Sir, we normally only ever operate to major international airports." He was my hero and I bought the beer that night!
But stuff comes around...... I went into Washington (IAD) one evening with an FO who didn't normally say very much. We cleared the final runway crossing and he asked the ground guy for taxy clarification. We got a sarcastic reply to the effect we should known our way around as we must have been there before.... Quick as a flash my FO came back and said "Excuse us Sir, we normally only ever operate to major international airports." He was my hero and I bought the beer that night!
I do 
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I may be the only one, but I think Kennedy is sometimes nothing short of a circus.
It seems it's become normal for controllers to use nonstandard phraseology (often requiring further transmissions) and to try and be very Harry Casual with a bit of an edge if they're crossed. It comes across that they don't really have a plan, and ad hoc a lot of instructions. Ground control especially. If the pilots spoke to the controllers the way the controllers spoke to the pilots there, there would be an argument every 5 minutes.
It seems it's become normal for controllers to use nonstandard phraseology (often requiring further transmissions) and to try and be very Harry Casual with a bit of an edge if they're crossed. It comes across that they don't really have a plan, and ad hoc a lot of instructions. Ground control especially. If the pilots spoke to the controllers the way the controllers spoke to the pilots there, there would be an argument every 5 minutes.
No, I agree unfortunately. They all speak as if their hair is on fire, and as if they are trying to impress somebody; (maybe their assistants ?), and to make themselves seem very clever. No reason for that, they just need to do their job calmly and expertly, that's all we need.
I am sorry but I much prefer the UK ATC style: calm, professional and extremely proficient.
I am sorry but I much prefer the UK ATC style: calm, professional and extremely proficient.
Give me London any day. Smooth, calm, professional with clear and concise communication. Time to sip your coffee and enjoy coming home.
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You can tell the controller worked themselves up into a tizzy because they subsequently f*cked up their R/T calls for the aircraft carrying out the go around.
An Aircraft missing an exit and causing a go around is a routine occurrence at capacity constrained airports, so there really is no need for unprofessional diatribe, you can vent off frequency if you feel the need to!
An Aircraft missing an exit and causing a go around is a routine occurrence at capacity constrained airports, so there really is no need for unprofessional diatribe, you can vent off frequency if you feel the need to!
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Followed after the check in by the much less welcome “Reduce speed 250 knots on conversion, expect 10-15 minute delay at Biggin”
Having both missed an exit at LHR (more than once in my time, sadly I am no sky god) and having had cause quite some time ago now to dive back into LHR in a hurry that involved fire trucks and a closed runway, I have to say that they remained smooth, calm, clear and professional regardless, so it can be done.
as if they are trying to impress somebody; (maybe their assistants ?), and to make themselves seem very clever.
Maybe the ‘character’ of JFK ATC is evolving and nature is force feeding her some.
No offence to my US colleagues but they really need to level up on their RT.
Between JFK, SFO and even that Alaska "we'd like to go down" the other day, I have witnessed some absolute garbage comms.
And let us not digress about their lack of Maydays!
Back on topic - Norse did a great job not to rise. Plenty of skilled guys over there flying the dreamliners.
Between JFK, SFO and even that Alaska "we'd like to go down" the other day, I have witnessed some absolute garbage comms.
And let us not digress about their lack of Maydays!
Back on topic - Norse did a great job not to rise. Plenty of skilled guys over there flying the dreamliners.
No offence to my US colleagues but they really need to level up on their RT.
Between JFK, SFO and even that Alaska "we'd like to go down" the other day, I have witnessed some absolute garbage comms.
And let us not digress about their lack of Maydays!
Back on topic - Norse did a great job not to rise. Plenty of skilled guys over there flying the dreamliners.
Between JFK, SFO and even that Alaska "we'd like to go down" the other day, I have witnessed some absolute garbage comms.
And let us not digress about their lack of Maydays!
Back on topic - Norse did a great job not to rise. Plenty of skilled guys over there flying the dreamliners.
The majority of controllers have no flying skills and in many cases could do with some English language training.Speed of speech seems more important than clarity.
Uplinker sums it up
Give me London any day. Smooth, calm, professional with clear and concise communication. Time to sip your coffee and enjoy coming home.
Report the issue
Recent posts - critique of US ATC performance in general, raise safety concerns which should not be dismissed as something to be accepted as 'it happens' or 'its their normal'.
Modern aviation is truly world-wide where safe operation depends on common understandings and procedures - good communication. Apparently this is not evident from these posts, which in turn should not be dismissed as 'only a few instances' or from 'outsiders' in an open forum.
Common understanding involves compromise, for this instance it is overseen by ICAO. National exceptions are allowed provided they are published, available and understood in a worldly context - these are not intended as 'do it our way or else'.
This is a safety issue identified in a renown professional forum, which must be widely highlighted. All active members should act with safety reporting at local, national, or international level.
Individual, confidential, reporting is available via some national systems, and ASRS in the US - owned and run independently by NASA (not FAA).
Just take a moment, as operational professionals to raise the issue, generally or where available with specific instances.
https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/international/overview.html 'Current Programs' for international reporting.
P.S.
Identify the small signals, these are important, not to be dismissed as just noise.
Beware 'drift into failure', complacency.
It hasn't happened to you … yet … but it could, with unforeseeable outcome.
Modern aviation is truly world-wide where safe operation depends on common understandings and procedures - good communication. Apparently this is not evident from these posts, which in turn should not be dismissed as 'only a few instances' or from 'outsiders' in an open forum.
Common understanding involves compromise, for this instance it is overseen by ICAO. National exceptions are allowed provided they are published, available and understood in a worldly context - these are not intended as 'do it our way or else'.
This is a safety issue identified in a renown professional forum, which must be widely highlighted. All active members should act with safety reporting at local, national, or international level.
Individual, confidential, reporting is available via some national systems, and ASRS in the US - owned and run independently by NASA (not FAA).
Just take a moment, as operational professionals to raise the issue, generally or where available with specific instances.
https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/international/overview.html 'Current Programs' for international reporting.
P.S.
Identify the small signals, these are important, not to be dismissed as just noise.
Beware 'drift into failure', complacency.
It hasn't happened to you … yet … but it could, with unforeseeable outcome.
Last edited by safetypee; 16th Jan 2024 at 15:18. Reason: P.S.
Recent posts - critique of US ATC performance in general, raise safety concerns which should not be dismissed as something to be accepted as 'it happens' or 'its their normal'.
Modern aviation is truly world-wide where safe operation depends on common understandings and procedures - good communication. Apparently this is not evident from these posts, which in turn should not be dismissed as 'only a few instances' or from 'outsiders' in an open forum.
Common understanding involves compromise, for this instance it is overseen by ICAO. National exceptions are allowed provided they are published, available and understood in a worldly context - these are not intended as 'do it our way or else'.
This is a safety issue identified in a renown professional forum, which must be widely highlighted. All active members should act with safety reporting at local, national, or international level.
Individual, confidential, reporting is available via some national systems, and ASRS in the US - owned and run independently by NASA (not FAA).
Just take a moment, as operational proffesionals to raise the issue, generally or where available with specific instances.
https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/international/overview.html 'Current Programs' for international reporting.
Modern aviation is truly world-wide where safe operation depends on common understandings and procedures - good communication. Apparently this is not evident from these posts, which in turn should not be dismissed as 'only a few instances' or from 'outsiders' in an open forum.
Common understanding involves compromise, for this instance it is overseen by ICAO. National exceptions are allowed provided they are published, available and understood in a worldly context - these are not intended as 'do it our way or else'.
This is a safety issue identified in a renown professional forum, which must be widely highlighted. All active members should act with safety reporting at local, national, or international level.
Individual, confidential, reporting is available via some national systems, and ASRS in the US - owned and run independently by NASA (not FAA).
Just take a moment, as operational proffesionals to raise the issue, generally or where available with specific instances.
https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/international/overview.html 'Current Programs' for international reporting.
The Alaska gal was shook, and still got what she needed with what she said. Never really any confusion with the controller either.
I have never heard a U.S. controller thanked for “sterling service” as I have in the UK, but we seem to do a pretty fair job of handling the majority of the aviation ops in the world on a daily basis…
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There does seem to be a very different way of getting jobs done here (UK and the US)
Do runways in the US have declared capacities and there and do they have allocated slots in the way that ours do with ACL?
Airport Coordination Limited (acl-uk.org)
Do runways in the US have declared capacities and there and do they have allocated slots in the way that ours do with ACL?
Airport Coordination Limited (acl-uk.org)
Once I missed an exit into our home base because I floated the landing, and it caused a go-around behind me. So that was two screw-ups by me in one arrival ! 
Ahem.......
I did however transmit a "sorry" as I eventually turned off, and the go-around was a sister ship from the same airline, so I made another apology in the crew room and we had a laugh about it.
Ahem.......I did however transmit a "sorry" as I eventually turned off, and the go-around was a sister ship from the same airline, so I made another apology in the crew room and we had a laugh about it.
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There are too much negative information and public comments over ATC work in USA. It has never been good. Actually, the best ATC publicity is non appearance in media.
It looks like there is no quality control over ATCOs work in USA-otherwise someone has been told them about phraseology mistakes and possible consequences. We are all humans and from time to time we say something that is not appropriate on frequency-but when you listening USA frequency-it is everything but safe, efficient and reliable service.
I asked earlier, and there were no reasonable answers, what was the exact "profit" to give two clearances instead of giving one by one?
It looks like there is no quality control over ATCOs work in USA-otherwise someone has been told them about phraseology mistakes and possible consequences. We are all humans and from time to time we say something that is not appropriate on frequency-but when you listening USA frequency-it is everything but safe, efficient and reliable service.
Two aircraft four miles apart and both cleared to land on same runway.
30 mins ago, Victor from VASAviation posted a video at JFK with 3 simultaneous emergencies; one with a fire/RTO and two with disruptive pax.
I have to eat my words now from my previous comment and say JFK ATC handled that situation amazingly.
I have to eat my words now from my previous comment and say JFK ATC handled that situation amazingly.
I’m regularly exposed to ATC all over the World, including a lot of the USA, and it is there that the highs and lows are experienced. I have been witness to controllers calmly dealing with intense workloads while retaining professionalism and a sense of humour, but also cringing when someone goes ape s*** over a genuine mistake/misunderstanding or even something that exists only in the mind of the controller. In many countries, this kind of behaviour would result in the person being relieved of duty straight away and told to lie down, then come back for some counselling and/or retraining.
With English as your first language, it is sometimes difficult to keep up at the busier airports; I feel for someone who is proficient to ICAO 5/6 but it is not their mother tongue, trying to parse some of the jargon and colloquialisms that get fired over the airwaves. I still rate US ATC as “good” but adherence to standards and consistency could be better, especially when dealing with foreign operators.
With English as your first language, it is sometimes difficult to keep up at the busier airports; I feel for someone who is proficient to ICAO 5/6 but it is not their mother tongue, trying to parse some of the jargon and colloquialisms that get fired over the airwaves. I still rate US ATC as “good” but adherence to standards and consistency could be better, especially when dealing with foreign operators.