Lufty at SFO
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
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Lufthansa crew could not break company rules as most professionals stick to the rules. I would have held 5 more minutes then declared a fuel emergency
Even so, the suggested action might have been Divert to OAK. There is no guarantee of a landing at SFO if you can't do the approach in use.
Gender Faculty Specialist
That sounds most unwise, making a demanding situation even worse. How would you explain that in your report when you could've diverted with reserves intact? Do you understand the difference of min fuel/fuel emergency? Speaking about sticking to the rules and professionalism.....??
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Once you declare Mayday, you decide what you do and the controller has to accomodate you. Other aircraft not on Mayday have then to step back.
However Lufthansa was too professional to provoke such a situation, despite bad show by the controller. Rightly so.
2.9.3 Content e)
“Instrument/visual approach/es in use. Specify landing runway/s unless the runway is that to which the instrument approach is made. Before advertising non-precision approaches, priority should be given to available precision, then APV approaches”
Got any reference to say this doesn’t apply at KSFO? Seems to be yet another example on what is an increasingly growing list of “efficiency” over following the rules as they’ve been notified.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Once you declare Mayday, you decide what you do and the controller has to accomodate you. Other aircraft not on Mayday have then to step back.
However Lufthansa was too professional to provoke such a situation, despite bad show by the controller. Rightly so.
However Lufthansa was too professional to provoke such a situation, despite bad show by the controller. Rightly so.
What sort of strange blame culture do you operate under?
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... I wouldn't dream of going to JFK and requesting an ILS when they've said the VOR is in use. If you're capable of doing it, you're expected to do it.
If DLH management is going to write stupid rules for their pilots to follow, they can continue to expect lengthy delays while operating in US airpsace.
If DLH management is going to write stupid rules for their pilots to follow, they can continue to expect lengthy delays while operating in US airpsace.
Nobody is talking about "requesting an ILS when they've said the VOR is in use".
If an airline files an IFR Flight Plan for a flight, it should remain IFR all the way to landing unless the crew request the cancellation of IFR. If an airport cannot cope with that, that is the airport's problem to sort out, not the airline's. DLH management have not written any "stupid rules for their pilots to follow", they are entirely rational. It is coming across more and more that SFO is a "good weather airport" that does not have the capacity to deal normally with IFR traffic.
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Also, does that in anyway imply that...
If the captain put herself into a situation where she had to declare a mayday due to fuel she
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What a nonsense comment!
Nobody is talking about "requesting an ILS when they've said the VOR is in use".
If an airline files an IFR Flight Plan for a flight, it should remain IFR all the way to landing unless the crew request the cancellation of IFR. If an airport cannot cope with that, that is the airport's problem to sort out, not the airline's. DLH management have not written any "stupid rules for their pilots to follow", they are entirely rational. It is coming across more and more that SFO is a "good weather airport" that does not have the capacity to deal normally with IFR traffic.
Nobody is talking about "requesting an ILS when they've said the VOR is in use".
If an airline files an IFR Flight Plan for a flight, it should remain IFR all the way to landing unless the crew request the cancellation of IFR. If an airport cannot cope with that, that is the airport's problem to sort out, not the airline's. DLH management have not written any "stupid rules for their pilots to follow", they are entirely rational. It is coming across more and more that SFO is a "good weather airport" that does not have the capacity to deal normally with IFR traffic.
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n airplane on an IFR plan can conduct a visual approach. Do you really think we’re talking about cancelling IFR?
Standard phraseology here might be aircraft requests visual approach. Aircraft cleared visual approach and requests cancellation of IFR flight plan. Controller confirms IFR flight plan cancelled at [time}.
The U.S. is very different to most places in the world as I keep saying.
What a nonsense comment!
Nobody is talking about "requesting an ILS when they've said the VOR is in use".
If an airline files an IFR Flight Plan for a flight, it should remain IFR all the way to landing unless the crew request the cancellation of IFR. If an airport cannot cope with that, that is the airport's problem to sort out, not the airline's. DLH management have not written any "stupid rules for their pilots to follow", they are entirely rational. It is coming across more and more that SFO is a "good weather airport" that does not have the capacity to deal normally with IFR traffic.
Nobody is talking about "requesting an ILS when they've said the VOR is in use".
If an airline files an IFR Flight Plan for a flight, it should remain IFR all the way to landing unless the crew request the cancellation of IFR. If an airport cannot cope with that, that is the airport's problem to sort out, not the airline's. DLH management have not written any "stupid rules for their pilots to follow", they are entirely rational. It is coming across more and more that SFO is a "good weather airport" that does not have the capacity to deal normally with IFR traffic.
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I think that is what happens here in the U.K.
Standard phraseology here might be aircraft requests visual approach. Aircraft cleared visual approach and requests cancellation of IFR flight plan. Controller confirms IFR flight plan cancelled at [time}.
The U.S. is very different to most places in the world as I keep saying.
Standard phraseology here might be aircraft requests visual approach. Aircraft cleared visual approach and requests cancellation of IFR flight plan. Controller confirms IFR flight plan cancelled at [time}.
The U.S. is very different to most places in the world as I keep saying.
In the US, an airplane can fly a visual approach while on an IFR flight plan. There are even cases where you may be required to remain clear of clouds in an IFR flight plan.
Nobody would ever suggest DLH cancelling IFR. A visual approach is just that- navigating primarily by what’s in the window. Normal IFR flight plan.
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There are even cases where you may be required to remain clear of clouds in an IFR flight plan.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Is that what all the angst is about? I suppose all the wailing is starting to make sense now.
In the US, an airplane can fly a visual approach while on an IFR flight plan. There are even cases where you may be required to remain clear of clouds in an IFR flight plan.
Nobody would ever suggest DLH cancelling IFR. A visual approach is just that- navigating primarily by what’s in the window. Normal IFR flight plan.
In the US, an airplane can fly a visual approach while on an IFR flight plan. There are even cases where you may be required to remain clear of clouds in an IFR flight plan.
Nobody would ever suggest DLH cancelling IFR. A visual approach is just that- navigating primarily by what’s in the window. Normal IFR flight plan.