Delta engine failure-Prague
Perhaps the Brits need to change theirs to "I think we have a spot of bother"! 
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Pegase Driver
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Standard phraseology is not an option in the European countries I fly into, and it is not an operator option either, afaik the State you fly into defines the rules, not the Operator.
de minimus non curat lex
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”…engine fire, descending…”
Again all worked out in the end, but the verbose ATC (radar) was something else
Another point for the arm chair aviators: where does it say that you can downgrade a MAYDAY call to say a PAN? Cancel distress YES but no downgrade in UK CAP413….😉 Does another document say otherwise?
Why would you want to downgrade anyway for a mechanical fault/failure. You don’t know what is going to develop / happen next?
The exception would be a Boeing/Airbus flight test engineer..
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Some of the alternative views relate to mindset: https://www.psychologytoday.com/nz/b...01605/mindsets
'If we have a fixed mindset and think that our ability is innate, then a failure can be unsettling because it makes us doubt how good we are. In contrast, if we have a growth mindset, then we expect that we can improve our ability—and a failure, therefore, shows us what we need to work on.
People with a fixed mindset are out to prove themselves, and may get very defensive when someone suggests they made a mistake—in other words, they measure themselves by their failures.
People with a growth mindset, on the other hand, often show perseverance and resilience when they’ve committed errors—they become more motivated to work harder.'
'If we have a fixed mindset and think that our ability is innate, then a failure can be unsettling because it makes us doubt how good we are. In contrast, if we have a growth mindset, then we expect that we can improve our ability—and a failure, therefore, shows us what we need to work on.
People with a fixed mindset are out to prove themselves, and may get very defensive when someone suggests they made a mistake—in other words, they measure themselves by their failures.
People with a growth mindset, on the other hand, often show perseverance and resilience when they’ve committed errors—they become more motivated to work harder.'
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So tell me this, following an engine flameout/failure (NOT fire/severe damage/separation), do you consider the aircraft to be in grave or imminent danger???
Pegase Driver
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PAN will not give you any priority, just indicating to ATC you have problem which might be elevated to a MAYDAY later.
Am surprised we are even discussing this , this is basic stuff. everyone should know.
For those that need to refresh their memory, or just want to learn something , the ICAO phraseology guide can be found here : https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/...kshelf/115.pdf
go to p[age 19 .
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"For those that need to refresh their memory, or just want to learn something , the ICAO phraseology guide can be found here :"
Where you can find the following statement:
The distress/urgency message shall contain (at least) the name of the station addressed, the call-sign, nature of the emergency, fuel endurance and persons on board; and any supporting information such as position, level, (descending), speed and heading, and pilot’s intentions.
Are you kidding. You've got an engine failure that you're trying to handle and you are expected to come up with all of that ? You should also note that it's a guide and nowhere does it state it's mandatory.
Where you can find the following statement:
The distress/urgency message shall contain (at least) the name of the station addressed, the call-sign, nature of the emergency, fuel endurance and persons on board; and any supporting information such as position, level, (descending), speed and heading, and pilot’s intentions.
Are you kidding. You've got an engine failure that you're trying to handle and you are expected to come up with all of that ? You should also note that it's a guide and nowhere does it state it's mandatory.
Aviate, navigate, communicate. After aviate best to focus about not shutting down the healthy engine... The tower controller got enough information that he ordered the equipment after the first call.
Do you know the reason for the failure?
This could still be a time critical event vs. a non time critical event.
My teaching and flying mindset for anything near a V1 cut- it's a Mayday (FAA Emergency word used) until we are cleaned up, on the front side of the curve, ATC knows our engine failure procedure route and terrain/obstacles are not a factor.
Mayday stops most airport operations so CFR can be focused on you. You don't want to hold and dump for an hour as a mayday- that will get your company in trouble with the host nation- Downgrade to PAN when appropriate.
You can go back up to Mayday. You can go down to Normal Ops- still with paperwork required and unlikely except in cases of weather avoidance with an intact aircraft. ATC can also treat you at the level they wish, as can dispatch.
Max weight, v1 cut, it's likely 3-4 minutes of Mayday, and IF a quick VMC or IMC ASAP return is required due to a truly bad day, CFR has a heads up. Company had a jet's fire on initial climbout turn into non extinguishing fire, turned into a Airworthiness Directive- so a hustle to CFR with an overweight landing vs. hold and dump changed their pacing.
Anything on/over a runway, after the Concorde loss especially, the airfield mgmt has to FOD check before allowing operations from that surface.
The real issue balance with a "simple" V1 cut is everyone wants to drill perfectly- but ATC needs to be in the loop as soon as Aviate and Navigate are squared away because the engine failure procedure routing is not likely your ATC cleared routing- ATC may have to push tin quickly away.
This is prior to the emergency procedure, often below 1000' AFE and the initiation of memory items.
When debriefing, it's rewarding noting the complex made simple vs. the reverse. I just know both when I see it and prefer to model the former.
That is not for me on the ground to determine I am not in the aircraft ,this is the PIC job. MAYDAY is about giving priority and getting the frequency quiet. . The degree of the emergency is not immediately relevant , this can be done in" free text" afterwards,
PAN will not give you any priority, just indicating to ATC you have problem which might be elevated to a MAYDAY later.
Am surprised we are even discussing this , this is basic stuff. everyone should know.
For those that need to refresh their memory, or just want to learn something , the ICAO phraseology guide can be found here : https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/...kshelf/115.pdf
go to p[age 19 .
PAN will not give you any priority, just indicating to ATC you have problem which might be elevated to a MAYDAY later.
Am surprised we are even discussing this , this is basic stuff. everyone should know.
For those that need to refresh their memory, or just want to learn something , the ICAO phraseology guide can be found here : https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/...kshelf/115.pdf
go to p[age 19 .
The world of pilots is focused too much on their flightdeck, and the mayday in many pilot's heads is only focused on the technical side of the failure.
In reality we move in a very dynamic world. The mayday is nothing more than a quick resetting of priorities, a call that you as a crew are not able anymore to do what the world expects you to do. And since there is a technical side to the story, you might better keep it quick and short aka standard. Of course we are all trained to add a simple indication of our _intentions_. But they are what they are: intentions. And because of the technical side of the issue (we still need to fly) the words used are short & concise. No proza. No yada yada yada slang. We don't need to go poetic when flying single engine close to the ground. ATC immediatly understands they need to keep people away from you, jus keeping an eye on your path along the way as well.
Once everything is under control, the flight path and aircraft systems are "controlled" again, you are certain you can navigate and control the aircraft according to given instructions by ATC (with some "restrictions" of course), there is a possibility to go back to a pan situation.
Reason doesn't matter- could be a compressor stall with or without temp exceedance. Could be a failure, with or without fire, with or without complications. Could be a "simple" fire, still producing thrust and climb performance is near normal, but- you must fly the engine failure procedure routing, unknown to ATC until declared to ATC
My teaching and flying mindset for anything near a V1 cut- it's a Mayday (FAA Emergency word used) until we are cleaned up, on the front side of the curve, ATC knows our engine failure procedure route and terrain/obstacles are not a factor.
Mayday stops most airport operations so CFR can be focused on you. You don't want to hold and dump for an hour as a mayday- that will get your company in trouble with the host nation- Downgrade to PAN when appropriate.
You can go back up to Mayday. You can go down to Normal Ops- still with paperwork required and unlikely except in cases of weather avoidance with an intact aircraft. ATC can also treat you at the level they wish, as can dispatch.
Max weight, v1 cut, it's likely 3-4 minutes of Mayday, and IF a quick VMC or IMC ASAP return is required due to a truly bad day, CFR has a heads up. Company had a jet's fire on initial climbout turn into non extinguishing fire, turned into a Airworthiness Directive- so a hustle to CFR with an overweight landing vs. hold and dump changed their pacing.
Anything on/over a runway, after the Concorde loss especially, the airfield mgmt has to FOD check before allowing operations from that surface.
The real issue balance with a "simple" V1 cut is everyone wants to drill perfectly- but ATC needs to be in the loop as soon as Aviate and Navigate are squared away because the engine failure procedure routing is not likely your ATC cleared routing- ATC may have to push tin quickly away.
This is prior to the emergency procedure, often below 1000' AFE and the initiation of memory items.
When debriefing, it's rewarding noting the complex made simple vs. the reverse. I just know both when I see it and prefer to model the former.
My teaching and flying mindset for anything near a V1 cut- it's a Mayday (FAA Emergency word used) until we are cleaned up, on the front side of the curve, ATC knows our engine failure procedure route and terrain/obstacles are not a factor.
Mayday stops most airport operations so CFR can be focused on you. You don't want to hold and dump for an hour as a mayday- that will get your company in trouble with the host nation- Downgrade to PAN when appropriate.
You can go back up to Mayday. You can go down to Normal Ops- still with paperwork required and unlikely except in cases of weather avoidance with an intact aircraft. ATC can also treat you at the level they wish, as can dispatch.
Max weight, v1 cut, it's likely 3-4 minutes of Mayday, and IF a quick VMC or IMC ASAP return is required due to a truly bad day, CFR has a heads up. Company had a jet's fire on initial climbout turn into non extinguishing fire, turned into a Airworthiness Directive- so a hustle to CFR with an overweight landing vs. hold and dump changed their pacing.
Anything on/over a runway, after the Concorde loss especially, the airfield mgmt has to FOD check before allowing operations from that surface.
The real issue balance with a "simple" V1 cut is everyone wants to drill perfectly- but ATC needs to be in the loop as soon as Aviate and Navigate are squared away because the engine failure procedure routing is not likely your ATC cleared routing- ATC may have to push tin quickly away.
This is prior to the emergency procedure, often below 1000' AFE and the initiation of memory items.
When debriefing, it's rewarding noting the complex made simple vs. the reverse. I just know both when I see it and prefer to model the former.
Its a Mayday until it’s something else.
That was my point in my reply.
Maybe the Mods could create a new heading for "Bitching about the USA" rather than continuously polluting (previously) productive discussions with this stuff.
