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Delta engine failure-Prague

Old 7th Sep 2023, 20:41
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The aviation world has become a very strange place when hoping that its practitioners would operate to internationally agreed procedures is considered to be insulting
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 20:56
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Perhaps the Brits need to change theirs to "I think we have a spot of bother"!
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Old 8th Sep 2023, 08:30
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo
"appropriate"?
I disagree.

It is mandatory.
Says who?

I can assure you it’s not mandatory. Perhaps in your operator but not across all or even by ICAO standards.
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Old 8th Sep 2023, 10:17
  #64 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Moonraker4
Says who?

I can assure you it’s not mandatory. Perhaps in your operator but not across all or even by ICAO standards.
Can you provide the references? curious .
Standard phraseology is not an option in the European countries I fly into, and it is not an operator option either, afaik the State you fly into defines the rules, not the Operator.
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Old 8th Sep 2023, 13:00
  #65 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
Can you provide the references? curious .
Standard phraseology is not an option in the European countries I fly into, and it is not an operator option either, afaik the State you fly into defines the rules, not the Operator.
If you wish to hear even more non standard emergency R/T listen to SWA1380 : uncontained engine failure/fire with rapid decompression & emergency descent

”…engine fire, descending…”

Again all worked out in the end, but the verbose ATC (radar) was something else

Another point for the arm chair aviators: where does it say that you can downgrade a MAYDAY call to say a PAN? Cancel distress YES but no downgrade in UK CAP413….😉 Does another document say otherwise?
Why would you want to downgrade anyway for a mechanical fault/failure. You don’t know what is going to develop / happen next?
The exception would be a Boeing/Airbus flight test engineer..
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Old 8th Sep 2023, 15:33
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Some of the alternative views relate to mindset: https://www.psychologytoday.com/nz/b...01605/mindsets

'If we have a fixed mindset and think that our ability is innate, then a failure can be unsettling because it makes us doubt how good we are. In contrast, if we have a growth mindset, then we expect that we can improve our ability—and a failure, therefore, shows us what we need to work on.

People with a fixed mindset are out to prove themselves, and may get very defensive when someone suggests they made a mistake—in other words, they measure themselves by their failures.

People with a growth mindset, on the other hand, often show perseverance and resilience when they’ve committed errors—they become more motivated to work harder.'
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Old 9th Sep 2023, 09:38
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
Can you provide the references? curious .
Standard phraseology is not an option in the European countries I fly into, and it is not an operator option either, afaik the State you fly into defines the rules, not the Operator.
So tell me this, following an engine flameout/failure (NOT fire/severe damage/separation), do you consider the aircraft to be in grave or imminent danger???
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Old 9th Sep 2023, 10:31
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Originally Posted by Moonraker4
So tell me this, following an engine flameout/failure (NOT fire/severe damage/separation), do you consider the aircraft to be in grave or imminent danger???
That is not for me on the ground to determine I am not in the aircraft ,this is the PIC job. MAYDAY is about giving priority and getting the frequency quiet. . The degree of the emergency is not immediately relevant , this can be done in" free text" afterwards,
PAN will not give you any priority, just indicating to ATC you have problem which might be elevated to a MAYDAY later.
Am surprised we are even discussing this , this is basic stuff. everyone should know.

For those that need to refresh their memory, or just want to learn something , the ICAO phraseology guide can be found here : https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/...kshelf/115.pdf
go to p[age 19 .
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Old 9th Sep 2023, 12:02
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"For those that need to refresh their memory, or just want to learn something , the ICAO phraseology guide can be found here :"

Where you can find the following statement:


The distress/urgency message shall contain (at least) the name of the station addressed, the call-sign, nature of the emergency, fuel endurance and persons on board; and any supporting information such as position, level, (descending), speed and heading, and pilot’s intentions.

Are you kidding. You've got an engine failure that you're trying to handle and you are expected to come up with all of that ? You should also note that it's a guide and nowhere does it state it's mandatory.
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Old 9th Sep 2023, 13:43
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Aviate, navigate, communicate. After aviate best to focus about not shutting down the healthy engine... The tower controller got enough information that he ordered the equipment after the first call.
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Old 9th Sep 2023, 13:53
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Originally Posted by Moonraker4
So tell me this, following an engine flameout/failure (NOT fire/severe damage/separation), do you consider the aircraft to be in grave or imminent danger???
Yes.
Do you know the reason for the failure?
This could still be a time critical event vs. a non time critical event.
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Old 9th Sep 2023, 16:36
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Originally Posted by B2N2
Yes.
Do you know the reason for the failure?
This could still be a time critical event vs. a non time critical event.
Reason doesn't matter- could be a compressor stall with or without temp exceedance. Could be a failure, with or without fire, with or without complications. Could be a "simple" fire, still producing thrust and climb performance is near normal, but- you must fly the engine failure procedure routing, unknown to ATC until declared to ATC

My teaching and flying mindset for anything near a V1 cut- it's a Mayday (FAA Emergency word used) until we are cleaned up, on the front side of the curve, ATC knows our engine failure procedure route and terrain/obstacles are not a factor.

Mayday stops most airport operations so CFR can be focused on you. You don't want to hold and dump for an hour as a mayday- that will get your company in trouble with the host nation- Downgrade to PAN when appropriate.

You can go back up to Mayday. You can go down to Normal Ops- still with paperwork required and unlikely except in cases of weather avoidance with an intact aircraft. ATC can also treat you at the level they wish, as can dispatch.

Max weight, v1 cut, it's likely 3-4 minutes of Mayday, and IF a quick VMC or IMC ASAP return is required due to a truly bad day, CFR has a heads up. Company had a jet's fire on initial climbout turn into non extinguishing fire, turned into a Airworthiness Directive- so a hustle to CFR with an overweight landing vs. hold and dump changed their pacing.

Anything on/over a runway, after the Concorde loss especially, the airfield mgmt has to FOD check before allowing operations from that surface.

The real issue balance with a "simple" V1 cut is everyone wants to drill perfectly- but ATC needs to be in the loop as soon as Aviate and Navigate are squared away because the engine failure procedure routing is not likely your ATC cleared routing- ATC may have to push tin quickly away.

This is prior to the emergency procedure, often below 1000' AFE and the initiation of memory items.

When debriefing, it's rewarding noting the complex made simple vs. the reverse. I just know both when I see it and prefer to model the former.
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Old 9th Sep 2023, 18:48
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
That is not for me on the ground to determine I am not in the aircraft ,this is the PIC job. MAYDAY is about giving priority and getting the frequency quiet. . The degree of the emergency is not immediately relevant , this can be done in" free text" afterwards,
PAN will not give you any priority, just indicating to ATC you have problem which might be elevated to a MAYDAY later.
Am surprised we are even discussing this , this is basic stuff. everyone should know.

For those that need to refresh their memory, or just want to learn something , the ICAO phraseology guide can be found here : https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/...kshelf/115.pdf
go to p[age 19 .
Completely agree.

The world of pilots is focused too much on their flightdeck, and the mayday in many pilot's heads is only focused on the technical side of the failure.

In reality we move in a very dynamic world. The mayday is nothing more than a quick resetting of priorities, a call that you as a crew are not able anymore to do what the world expects you to do. And since there is a technical side to the story, you might better keep it quick and short aka standard. Of course we are all trained to add a simple indication of our _intentions_. But they are what they are: intentions. And because of the technical side of the issue (we still need to fly) the words used are short & concise. No proza. No yada yada yada slang. We don't need to go poetic when flying single engine close to the ground. ATC immediatly understands they need to keep people away from you, jus keeping an eye on your path along the way as well.

Once everything is under control, the flight path and aircraft systems are "controlled" again, you are certain you can navigate and control the aircraft according to given instructions by ATC (with some "restrictions" of course), there is a possibility to go back to a pan situation.
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Old 9th Sep 2023, 20:02
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Originally Posted by India Four Two
So even outside of the US, American pilots are reluctant to utter the word "Mayday"?
Wow, post #7, you guys are slipping.
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Old 9th Sep 2023, 21:11
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Originally Posted by moosepileit
You don't want to hold and dump for an hour as a mayday- that will get your company in trouble with the host nation- Downgrade to PAN when appropriate.
If I am single engine in a twin it's an emergency. If I need time to set up I will stay an emergency aircraft. If for whatever reason, like flight control issues I need an hour to figure it out, I will maintain emergency. ATC can figure out if they can get other aircraft around me, and I will definitely not care about the stern letter the host nation could send to my company. Emergency does not mean that everyone else is shut off and the airport is closed, it will just guarantee me priority when I might need it. Have had 2 full engine failures, 1 partial engine failure (2/3 with smoke in the cockpit), 1 low oil pressure, 2 alternate gear extensions, 1 total main brake failure and 2 cargo smoke indications. Declared emergency from start to finish every time, even for the engine failure followed by successful relight, and knowing the cargo fire indication was prone to false positives. Never have I seen that letter...
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Old 9th Sep 2023, 22:22
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Originally Posted by moosepileit
Reason doesn't matter- could be a compressor stall with or without temp exceedance. Could be a failure, with or without fire, with or without complications. Could be a "simple" fire, still producing thrust and climb performance is near normal, but- you must fly the engine failure procedure routing, unknown to ATC until declared to ATC

My teaching and flying mindset for anything near a V1 cut- it's a Mayday (FAA Emergency word used) until we are cleaned up, on the front side of the curve, ATC knows our engine failure procedure route and terrain/obstacles are not a factor.

Mayday stops most airport operations so CFR can be focused on you. You don't want to hold and dump for an hour as a mayday- that will get your company in trouble with the host nation- Downgrade to PAN when appropriate.

You can go back up to Mayday. You can go down to Normal Ops- still with paperwork required and unlikely except in cases of weather avoidance with an intact aircraft. ATC can also treat you at the level they wish, as can dispatch.

Max weight, v1 cut, it's likely 3-4 minutes of Mayday, and IF a quick VMC or IMC ASAP return is required due to a truly bad day, CFR has a heads up. Company had a jet's fire on initial climbout turn into non extinguishing fire, turned into a Airworthiness Directive- so a hustle to CFR with an overweight landing vs. hold and dump changed their pacing.

Anything on/over a runway, after the Concorde loss especially, the airfield mgmt has to FOD check before allowing operations from that surface.

The real issue balance with a "simple" V1 cut is everyone wants to drill perfectly- but ATC needs to be in the loop as soon as Aviate and Navigate are squared away because the engine failure procedure routing is not likely your ATC cleared routing- ATC may have to push tin quickly away.

This is prior to the emergency procedure, often below 1000' AFE and the initiation of memory items.

When debriefing, it's rewarding noting the complex made simple vs. the reverse. I just know both when I see it and prefer to model the former.
You and I are trying to preach the same thing, just using different words.
Its a Mayday until it’s something else.
That was my point in my reply.
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Old 10th Sep 2023, 00:53
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Needs a "like" or alike button.

Originally Posted by B2N2
You and I are trying to preach the same thing, just using different words.
Its a Mayday until it’s something else.
That was my point in my reply.
Cheers!
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Old 10th Sep 2023, 01:23
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There's a dead horse in here.
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Old 10th Sep 2023, 01:28
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Originally Posted by Zombywoof
There's a dead horse in here.
we will keep beating it until morale improves.
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Old 10th Sep 2023, 02:05
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Maybe the Mods could create a new heading for "Bitching about the USA" rather than continuously polluting (previously) productive discussions with this stuff.
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