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Delta engine failure-Prague

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Delta engine failure-Prague

Old 5th Sep 2023, 12:51
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Thank you, ATC Watcher.

In addition, we must all remember that radio telecommunications are not high fidelity, nor are they necessarily clear of interference or distortion. Microphones are not always placed in the correct position, and can be half full of food and spit, so voices can be indistinct.

So "....callsign, we have a problem and are declaring an emergency", if subject to distortion or interference, might NOT be received clearly or unambiguously; potentially requiring the ATCO to ask "Callsign, Say again?", taking up precious pilot processing and time.

Whereas "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY" Is short, simple, unambiguous and distinctive. Anyone hearing it, or part of it, will know what it is.
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 21:46
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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I simply don't understand the resistance to change from "declaring an emergency" to standard aviation phraseology (PAN PAN or MAYDAY). Defending an unwillingness to change among crusty senior citizens like me doesn't wash either. I don't care how old I am; if the CP sends down an SOP change which requires me to say "Positive Climb" instead of "Positive Rate" or similar, I'm damn well going to change what I say so that anyone sitting beside me (or listening to my radio call) will understand what I mean. Change is the only constant in life - even for pilots. Time to get over ourselves and stop rowing upstream.
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Old 6th Sep 2023, 00:15
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Originally Posted by LTCTerry
Words mean things, and "should" does not mean must or shall...

The French pilot understood it was an emergency and asked about vacating the runway.

The pilot explained what the emergency was faster than he could have said "mayday, mayday, mayday." And everyone was safely on the ground a few minutes later. What did he do wrong?
I wonder if the AF pilot also considered the possibility of there being debris on the runway from the malfunctioning engine that just departed.

And why is the immediate response to a Mayday call an inane request for number of souls on board and fuel remaining?
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Old 6th Sep 2023, 01:12
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I have noticed that American Airlines pilots do now call mayday or pan in numerous events where ATC recordings are published on Youtube
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Old 6th Sep 2023, 01:18
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Originally Posted by Lake1952
I wonder if the AF pilot also considered the possibility of there being debris on the runway from the malfunctioning engine that just departed.

And why is the immediate response to a Mayday call an inane request for number of souls on board and fuel remaining?
Full video of the incident from start to finish No immediate inane request from this controller. It is US controllers who are the most guilty in that regard
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Old 6th Sep 2023, 08:08
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
No it's not, the world over would call "PAN PAN PAN PAN PAN PAN, Tower, Delta XXX Engine Failure, Maintaining Runway Track, standby for further information". Done in the sim x 3 every 6 months. What do you guys do??


The point is it doesn't matter what the controller says, you then immediately call Mayday (or Pan). ATC can then decide what to do with you; stay on Tower or go to Dep.

If only you could stay as calm as this crew did

The problem was handled competently and with a minimum of fuss






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Old 6th Sep 2023, 09:34
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Originally Posted by stilton
If only you could stay as calm as this crew did

The problem was handled competently and with a minimum of fuss
... really ? ... so calm that they failed to use correct international procedures ! As to competence and minimum of fuss, I haven't heard the CVR ... have you ?
Aviation is an INTERNATIONAL activity - derogation from internationally agreed procedures to satisfy individualism or false bravado is to be expected from rebellious teenagers ... the aviation community claims a much more responsible attitude !
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Old 6th Sep 2023, 10:49
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Complacency

Success brings with it the danger of complacency.

Judging the outcome (safe, success) could range from 'good enough' to 'could be better'; this judgement can influence behaviour in future situations.

In our currently safe industry we must continue to learn, particularly from success. Learning relates to how we choose to frame 'success'; good enough, or could be better.

Those who believe 'good enough', at a given time, in context, can suffer surprise over time: cf regulator viewpoint - 737Max.

Todays good enough will not be sufficient Tomorrow.

Uplink, ATC, CJ,
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Old 6th Sep 2023, 14:59
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I think the Brits have soon chased every American pilot away from this forum... Whenever an ATC recording is posted you just know what the discussion will be about.
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Old 6th Sep 2023, 15:38
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone
Works every time until it doesn't.

How many "declaring an emergency" calls did it take for those 737-200 guys in Hawaii a while ago for (native-speaking) ATC and other traffic to get the message?
Using MAYDAY vs emergency in the Transair 810 accident would have made no difference. According to the ATC transcript, ATC factual report, and ATC interviews from the docket, the initial and subsequent transmissions from 810 to ATC using the word “emergency” were either garbled or not received. Contributing to the communications logjam were (1) bad luck of simultaneous transmissions, (2) Transair 809 also on approach for landing, (3) combining ATC positions (all tower and approach) into a single controller (local controller).

BTW, at the time of the 810 accident, the local controller had nearly 30 years experience as an FAA air traffic controller.
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Old 6th Sep 2023, 18:25
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Originally Posted by J.O.
I simply don't understand the resistance to change from "declaring an emergency" to standard aviation phraseology (PAN PAN or MAYDAY). Defending an unwillingness to change among crusty senior citizens like me doesn't wash either. I don't care how old I am; if the CP sends down an SOP change which requires me to say "Positive Climb" instead of "Positive Rate" or similar, I'm damn well going to change what I say so that anyone sitting beside me (or listening to my radio call) will understand what I mean. Change is the only constant in life - even for pilots. Time to get over ourselves and stop rowing upstream.
I don't think it's necessarily an intentional disregard for change - it's very common to inadvertently revert to old procedures in times of stress.

All the big carriers in the US (that I'm aware of, at least) now beat us over the head to use MAYDAY in these situations - including domestically - and we certainly now say it in the sim every time.

Why this crew didn't use it here I don't know, but it's not necessarily intentional noncompliance.
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 05:25
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All this hot air from the nation which allows ‘practice pans’ on active frequencies

Last edited by stilton; 7th Sep 2023 at 06:11.
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 08:05
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RMOAS

Originally Posted by stilton
All this hot air from the nation which allows ‘practice pans’ on active frequencies
Beautious Saturday AM, coasting into UK- practice PAN on 121.5 by a student. Our ATC was also the steer. Nearby Lufthansa comes unglued about it with ATC for minutes. No answer sufficed. ATC was a patient peach about it- I chuckle knowing the update steer request now looms... On cue, update practice pan steer request, more rough Luft gripes, so I key up, "Luft, from Reach, if you could win a bloody war, we'd all do this your way, auf Deutsch"!

That restored the quiet, if not the peace.

Aviate, navigate, communicate. Bernoulli, Magellan, Marconi/Tesla- in that order- wannabes griping comms means we had a good day...


Last edited by moosepileit; 7th Sep 2023 at 08:28.
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 09:37
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Aviate, navigate, communicate.

... "E......N** descend two four zero zero" Crew receiving that (on a non-precision approach !) descended to 400' !. They died in the 747, of which, they were in charge. Which of the 3 basic aviation tenets would have "meant that they had a better day"
As one of those who started aviation comms using ABLE, BAKER etc. with 'PATCASATNI' being the distress imperative, I am at a loss to understand the seeming inability/reluctance/ bloody-mindedness which makes today's simplicity of 'MAYDAY' or, even fewer syllables, 'PAN', so difficult for one particular section of the industry to cope with !
An easily arranged visit to the D&D cell or its equivalent would possibly offer better professional value than vain attempts to lower one's handicap !

Last edited by Cornish Jack; 7th Sep 2023 at 10:53.
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 11:29
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack
Aviate, navigate, communicate.

... "E......N** descend two four zero zero" Crew receiving that (on a non-precision approach !) descended to 400' !. They died in the 747, of which, they were in charge. Which of the 3 basic aviation tenets would have "meant that they had a better day"
As one of those who started aviation comms using ABLE, BAKER etc. with 'PATCASATNI' being the distress imperative, I am at a loss to understand the seeming inability/reluctance/ bloody-mindedness which makes today's simplicity of 'MAYDAY' or, even fewer syllables, 'PAN', so difficult for one particular section of the industry to cope with !
An easily arranged visit to the D&D cell or its equivalent would possibly offer better professional value than vain attempts to lower one's handicap !
They blundered navigation Magellan, then R/T weakness in Marconi/Tesla helped seal their fate- because they had lost SA and descended, not climbed, confirmed, held or diverted. Someone was not debate team material... ATC cannot help with readback/hearback if you go off script- non-sequitor.

State rules in US/FAA are not mayday/pan based. Law of primacy makes us ESL when ICAO and the chit hits the fan.

Simple planetwide ICAO ATC phrase concept in one breath- Mayday if outcome in doubt and it closes the airspace for just lil old you, Pan Pan for what you know you need. Upgrade/Downgrade as needed, normal ops can be restored for all but hijack. This is also for Asia weather diverts if ATC is "unable" and CBs tower hail over your route.. Don't use to or too, just two. Dont use for, just four. Descending, Climbing, maintaining, always. Don't use left or right in Asia, just cardinals and avoid degrees heading requests, find waypoints downrange or use offsets and cardinals from cleared route. ATC can say left or right, their choice. Always know the FIR boundary names on your route for the current controller, and the next far FIR boundary name and eta when checking in. Sometimes you check in early for air defense/country clearance, sometimes you check out behind you- mind the enroute chart "ball" notes.

How's that? Mind the states with low transtion altitudes and layers- miss it in low wx with low pressure and chit happens. Forgetting the altimetry, rules, being tired or stressed and setting the wrong qnh will get you close to a record tie flor low alt, sloppy radios won't help.

Flying Tiger's flt 66 1989 KL accident had a dozen links in the chain, R/T being far down the list. More recently and appropriate to this diversion is the CDG french to English qnh blunder- 23 May 2022, D8-4311 ARN - CDG.

Last edited by moosepileit; 7th Sep 2023 at 11:45.
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 12:09
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone
Works every time until it doesn't.

How many "declaring an emergency" calls did it take for those 737-200 guys in Hawaii a while ago for (native-speaking) ATC and other traffic to get the message?
ATC was a mess, however, that accident was an "aviate" error chain. Not Communicaton based.

Nice try.
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 17:53
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Originally Posted by Oasis
‘we are declaring an emergency’ or ‘pan pan’ (which some controllers don’t seem to understand)
Guess which one is the international ICAO standard, for almost a hundred years and a mandatory knowledge for any ICAO ELP, worldwide?

Thus, the controllers who apparently don't understand live:
a) in your mind
b) in the USoA
c) both a+b.

Can be a crowded place.
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 17:56
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo
"appropriate"?
I disagree.

It is mandatory.
Apart from losing an engine on an ETOPS twin, or any twin with Perf-A certified ops. ..., oh wait.
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 17:59
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Originally Posted by Lake1952
I wonder if the AF pilot also considered the possibility of there being debris on the runway from the malfunctioning engine that just departed.
As if a engine spat on a runway did kill a French airplane ever before?
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 18:18
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Sorry for the bitchy posts above, just listened to the whole video above and the sadness is deep. Off for a bucketload of icecream.
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