Delta engine failure-Prague
You have misunderstood my post, I heard what the crew said in their acknowledgment to the controller, it’s correct they referred to themselves as an emergency aircraft
My point was they didn’t get the chance to call Mayday as the controller called them first
Originally Posted by Stilton
it’s correct they referred to themselves as an emergency aircraft
Originally Posted by Stilton
My point was they didn’t get the chance to call Mayday as the controller called them first
An internationally agreed term provides consistency in communication.
Calling (when able) cost nothing, but can avoid complacency or assumption about seeing or knowing - for either party in the communication.
We judge with hindsight, biased by outcome - success; but the important lessons are in the process, that communications can breakdown, mislead, misunderstood. The safety value is identifying the difference between 'good enough' and the striven for 'excellence' in our profession.
Calling (when able) cost nothing, but can avoid complacency or assumption about seeing or knowing - for either party in the communication.
We judge with hindsight, biased by outcome - success; but the important lessons are in the process, that communications can breakdown, mislead, misunderstood. The safety value is identifying the difference between 'good enough' and the striven for 'excellence' in our profession.
Originally Posted by Less Hair
What is the point to call for attention when the tower sees and knows what has happened already?
Originally Posted by Less Hair
Mayday is a code word to get attention fast.
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I knew this would be the focal point of the discussion on pprune as soon as I heard the first part of the video. Pan or mayday is emphasized where I work (U.S. based carrier with a fleet of 100+ widebodies). Additionally it was recently added to the US / FAA aeronautical information manual publication as being the the appropriate phraseology.
As it is, many of the US long haul pilots are 60+ years old and quite set in their ways. I teach in the sim and trying to impart the need for this phraseology to my senior counterparts as a mere 50 year old youngster in a diplomatic way is a real struggle. When they are fighting a V1 cut they tend not to care and view any critique of r/t during debrief as nitpicking and minutia. I do my best, but the odds of this coming out of the transmitter properly, especially from the left seat are slim. Law of primacy and all, under stress they’re going to do things they way they were first learned.
As it is, many of the US long haul pilots are 60+ years old and quite set in their ways. I teach in the sim and trying to impart the need for this phraseology to my senior counterparts as a mere 50 year old youngster in a diplomatic way is a real struggle. When they are fighting a V1 cut they tend not to care and view any critique of r/t during debrief as nitpicking and minutia. I do my best, but the odds of this coming out of the transmitter properly, especially from the left seat are slim. Law of primacy and all, under stress they’re going to do things they way they were first learned.
Law of primacy and all, under stress they’re going to do things they way they were first learned.
Yes, of course, that may be so... BUT these people are not operating in a vacuum - the younger less experienced watch, listen and observe ,,, then copy ! and so it goes on.
From observation, It would seem that there is some sort of 'macho' induced reluctance, among (particularly) US pilots to declare an emergency (other than 'bullying' ATC into giving them a preferred runway ! !) What tends to be missed from these discussions are the procedures (external to the aircraft) which are activated by the 'Mayday' or 'Pan' declaration - in particular the priority radar indication which makes inter-control coordination so much more simple. The correct procedure is simple ... not using it can lead to unnecessary problems ... and worse !
Yes, of course, that may be so... BUT these people are not operating in a vacuum - the younger less experienced watch, listen and observe ,,, then copy ! and so it goes on.
From observation, It would seem that there is some sort of 'macho' induced reluctance, among (particularly) US pilots to declare an emergency (other than 'bullying' ATC into giving them a preferred runway ! !) What tends to be missed from these discussions are the procedures (external to the aircraft) which are activated by the 'Mayday' or 'Pan' declaration - in particular the priority radar indication which makes inter-control coordination so much more simple. The correct procedure is simple ... not using it can lead to unnecessary problems ... and worse !
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One of the safety recommendations following the Tenerife disaster was:
Quite a shame that part of our industry hasn't adopted standardised R/T in a case of an emergency nearly half a century later, despite the countless opportunities to practice it in a simulator every 6 months.
3.2. Use of standard, concise and unequivocal aeronautical language.
Nonsensical statement. There's been no argument that the crew didn't do their job handling the emergency. That was never the issue. The issue is that using non-standard phraseology in countries where controllers' mother tonque is not English carries the potential for misunderstandings. Hence the need to abide by standard ICAO phraseology. It doesn't detract from a good job done by the crew. The words MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY will immediately put ATC on alert.
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Excellent handling by everyone , no question , now the R/T question of course. Using non ICAO standard phraseology has caused so many incidents and accidents over the last decades, so why the resistance to accept it ? I fail to understand what some of the best trained and best paid pilots , like now here the Delta ones , still do not get this basic safety rule. . We all in the rest of the world have to get tested for English minimum level 4 and get refreshers on using the correct phraseology, while some pilots get automatically level 6 without even having to do a test. Especially those pilots should set the example, but in fact they are often the worst. All the US incidents we have been debating in the other forum recently have all one thing in common : confusing non standard phraseology.
Wannabees galore
Bernoulli, Magellan,Marconi (nee Tesla). Aviate, navigate, communicate. (Yes, in scripted AQP one expects a quick, accurate Pan declaration and description of the engine failure procedure routing to inform ATC of which tin to push).
Law of primacy- ATC handed off to departure having not seen the black smoke trail of #2. No shock when US parlance, not ICAO phrases squirt out.
Exactly when Marconi/Tesla were third place runners after Beurnoulli and Magellan- one gets a pass.
I teach part 121 and grew up Intl ICAO- sure, debrief the Pan R/T- but no one that has been there give **** #1 if the context was conveyed.
Not even the CAAC would assign a point against the operator's certificate on this one
Law of primacy- ATC handed off to departure having not seen the black smoke trail of #2. No shock when US parlance, not ICAO phrases squirt out.
Exactly when Marconi/Tesla were third place runners after Beurnoulli and Magellan- one gets a pass.
I teach part 121 and grew up Intl ICAO- sure, debrief the Pan R/T- but no one that has been there give **** #1 if the context was conveyed.
Not even the CAAC would assign a point against the operator's certificate on this one
Last edited by moosepileit; 5th Sep 2023 at 02:08.
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A mayday is not necessary if there are no additional issues. A triple pan is sufficient. If that isn't understood by ATC then a mayday would do the trick. From what could be seen and heard on the video, it looked well handled to me and I particularly liked the way they planted it on the runway!
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The French pilot understood it was an emergency and asked about vacating the runway.
The pilot explained what the emergency was faster than he could have said "mayday, mayday, mayday." And everyone was safely on the ground a few minutes later. What did he do wrong?
The pilot explained what the emergency was faster than he could have said "mayday, mayday, mayday." And everyone was safely on the ground a few minutes later. What did he do wrong?
...and they still don't get it !
Are these people so self-centred and unaware of the variation in operating conditions that they feel no need to accommodate them ? Let's just slob around with R/T based on "Hi Joe, mebbe got a bummer heah !", or some individual variation thereof ... I expect everyone involved will (eventually) work out what is meant ! While the United States may well have a preponderance of aviation in all its forms, operating outside their own little bubble requires INTERNATIONAL understanding and cooperation.
...and they still don't get it !
Are these people so self-centred and unaware of the variation in operating conditions that they feel no need to accommodate them ? Let's just slob around with R/T based on "Hi Joe, mebbe got a bummer heah !", or some individual variation thereof ... I expect everyone involved will (eventually) work out what is meant ! While the United States may well have a preponderance of aviation in all its forms, operating outside their own little bubble requires INTERNATIONAL understanding and cooperation.
Especially given it's Delta, so probably all done with quite the hangover. 
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How many "declaring an emergency" calls did it take for those 737-200 guys in Hawaii a while ago for (native-speaking) ATC and other traffic to get the message?
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For info Mayday 3x is much more than “ declaring emergency” it implies immediate assistance , priority and radio silence from everyone else on the same frequency, also to avoid cross transmissions .
It goes back to basic training .
as to the “ should “ in ICAO docs , i hope you know how to read PANS OPS and not part of this group of pilots that read “ Resolution Advisory” as just an advice . Quite a lot still out there unfortunately .
