What really happened here..!!!????
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What really happened here..!!!????
Wooooowwwwww....kudos to that ATC Lady...Unbelievable <3
BTW...Tells the Legend that after 2000 years GTT keeps turning to final
BTW...Tells the Legend that after 2000 years GTT keeps turning to final
Wow, that was hard to listen to. What a complete Shyte Show by the Citation pilot
Really weird. Under the influence of something? It would seem that his main difficulty was slowing down sufficiently.
Under the influence of something I reckon. His situational awareness and aircraft control (ie headings and speed) are almost non-existent. It would be instructive to see his vertical profile too.
And it may have been a single pilot operation. One presumes that the FAA would have initiated an investigation if ATC reported this rather unusual occurrence.
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As a minimum, I'd like to believe that a report could be filed by the FAA to the Mexican authorities and that this particular pilot is banned from operating an aircraft in US airspace.
Last edited by FUMR; 12th Mar 2023 at 16:08.
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Well, being the devil's adcocate : whas this really a safety issue ? nobody lost its calm , he did not cause any harm to anyone , landed safely in the end. Mexican operated/registered. Not sure this will be a high priority for the NTSB especially at the moment...
Under the influence of something I reckon.
I also wondered about....
.....a newly-minted pilot/owner. It should be noted, however, that the CE-650s are not certified for single-pilot. Not that that would necessarily stop someone with enough "sense of privilege," ego and chutzpah....and a new toy.
Incapacit[at]ed instructor ?
This would usually be more of a question of an FAA "ramp check" after landing, not a major investigation. But easier said than done at zero-ack-emma. "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas!"
I don’t think he had the airport, much less the runway in sight when he said he did and his request for 30 R would have had me pushing the buttons for the equipment. Of course we don’t know what the controller is saying to other folks in the Twr. That he could not even place himself on xwind, downwind, base or final speaks volumes…was the aircraft even capable of being correctly configured for landing at the speeds he seems to be flying. What speed is he maintaining…any idea?
I understand what you are saying but it wasn't just a little oopsie. How many attempts did he make? Why was he all over the place. Did he display good airmanship? Sure, no one was hurt.....this time!
Hmmm - interesting note over to the right on this posting re: XB-GTT
https://www.jetphotos.com/registration/XB-GTT
https://www.jetphotos.com/registration/XB-GTT
"One of the few "truly" registered private jets in Mexico! Let me explain: In this country, registrations fall into 3 categories (excluding military)… They are as follows: Commercial [XA], Non-Commercial [XB], and governmental..."
So owner/operator?
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We had a similar case in my oold centre some years back when the first Very light jets arrived. . From memory : a US Citation Mustang ( if I remember correctly) came accross the Atlantic with a flight plan to Dusseldorf, , could not find any of the waypoints , used non-standard phraseology and made 2 or 3 attempts to land before the DUS TWR cleared all traffic and let him land alone. He was met by ATC guys on the tramac who find out there were 2 old buddies in their 80s flying outside of the US for the first time having bought the jet only a few weeks before . But all paperwork , licences were OK, so they got a verbal reprimand for not having properly planned their flight, But as far as I know the BFU ( German NTSB) did not get involved.
I doubt if anything "medical" was going on, pilot's comms were pretty good for a non-native speaker.
If you look at the previous 30 or so flights:
* none were in the dark, except on its home-base (Monterrey)
* no go-arounds
* look all more like instrument (or radar vectored) approaches
KVGT has only medium runway edgelights and 3° PAPI, no approach lights.
The airport in the middle of a 'sea of lights'
The 2 main roads immediately adjacent to the airport, are oriented and intersecting almost identical to the 2 main runways.
They came in initially at speeds around 190 (GS, but wind pretty calm), and only after a few attempts, it stabilized more or less below 150.
If it is the same crew that flew all the other flights, I would not be surprised that their recent visual night-flying experience/skills were low, came in (mentally) unprepared and fast, had difficulty establishing and maintaining visual contact with the airfield, and some degree of spatial disorientation.
If ATC was able/allowed to give vectors for a visual approach, they should have done that after the first attempt or two.
And switching off the 30R runway's lights, might have been a good idea (especially as they were overshooting the final of 30L a couple of times)
Everybody is applauding ATC, but I don't know, they were sitting in their familiar TWR, low traffic and but the disoriented pilots maybe the first time in Vegas and at night, in a fast Citation....
Some examples where I think ATC might have improved to score a "very good"
"Turn right to lineup with downwind" (better and more precise: turn right heading 120° to....)
"Continue that present heading 070" (3 seconds later: Correction 250)
"Begin a left turn now 45° to line up" (if a pilot is confused/getting lost, don't mix course adjustment degrees, with heading degrees - although the pilot seemed to understand/acknowledge everything correctly, so not an issue in this case)
"Continue northbound, just continue your heading northbound" (but only a few moments later ) "I told you to fly the heading, you're going northbound now" (!!!??? pretty confusing, even from the armchair)
(while still north of the field -tail towards the field, so no visual- and northbound, in sort of a very wide right crosswind for 30L) "Begin a left turn to enter a left base - correction a left crosswind for runway 30L"
"Turn right 25° for the crosswind, you're about to line up for runway 12L." (again mixing adjustment degrees and heading between instructions) "Traffic is a helicopter over the field" (all the pilots needed, some other traffic to watch out for)
(on one of the failed attempts, overshooting the final) "continue left turn over the field to join left downwind" (but that makes them lose visual after crossing the field, better would have been to let them continue circle -lefthand- the field so that the left seater could maintain visual on the rwy all the time, and better estimate&fly the downwind entry)
If you look at the previous 30 or so flights:
* none were in the dark, except on its home-base (Monterrey)
* no go-arounds
* look all more like instrument (or radar vectored) approaches
KVGT has only medium runway edgelights and 3° PAPI, no approach lights.
The airport in the middle of a 'sea of lights'
The 2 main roads immediately adjacent to the airport, are oriented and intersecting almost identical to the 2 main runways.
They came in initially at speeds around 190 (GS, but wind pretty calm), and only after a few attempts, it stabilized more or less below 150.
If it is the same crew that flew all the other flights, I would not be surprised that their recent visual night-flying experience/skills were low, came in (mentally) unprepared and fast, had difficulty establishing and maintaining visual contact with the airfield, and some degree of spatial disorientation.
If ATC was able/allowed to give vectors for a visual approach, they should have done that after the first attempt or two.
And switching off the 30R runway's lights, might have been a good idea (especially as they were overshooting the final of 30L a couple of times)
Everybody is applauding ATC, but I don't know, they were sitting in their familiar TWR, low traffic and but the disoriented pilots maybe the first time in Vegas and at night, in a fast Citation....
Some examples where I think ATC might have improved to score a "very good"
"Turn right to lineup with downwind" (better and more precise: turn right heading 120° to....)
"Continue that present heading 070" (3 seconds later: Correction 250)
"Begin a left turn now 45° to line up" (if a pilot is confused/getting lost, don't mix course adjustment degrees, with heading degrees - although the pilot seemed to understand/acknowledge everything correctly, so not an issue in this case)
"Continue northbound, just continue your heading northbound" (but only a few moments later ) "I told you to fly the heading, you're going northbound now" (!!!??? pretty confusing, even from the armchair)
(while still north of the field -tail towards the field, so no visual- and northbound, in sort of a very wide right crosswind for 30L) "Begin a left turn to enter a left base - correction a left crosswind for runway 30L"
"Turn right 25° for the crosswind, you're about to line up for runway 12L." (again mixing adjustment degrees and heading between instructions) "Traffic is a helicopter over the field" (all the pilots needed, some other traffic to watch out for)
(on one of the failed attempts, overshooting the final) "continue left turn over the field to join left downwind" (but that makes them lose visual after crossing the field, better would have been to let them continue circle -lefthand- the field so that the left seater could maintain visual on the rwy all the time, and better estimate&fly the downwind entry)
I’ll toss my hat into the one-hand-clapping ring for the local controller. If the pilot can’t execute basic instructions like enter a downwind for a visual approach, the LC should have either offered an instrument approach or another airport. In addition to confusing vectors (how often do you hear an LC issue specific vectors?), comments like “you’re too fast” leaned too much toward LC acting as pilot.
One compliment I will extend to the traffic-pattern-mangler is that he managed to stay clear of the Class B, not always an easy task at KVGT.
One compliment I will extend to the traffic-pattern-mangler is that he managed to stay clear of the Class B, not always an easy task at KVGT.
I’ll toss my hat into the one-hand-clapping ring for the local controller. If the pilot can’t execute basic instructions like enter a downwind for a visual approach, the LC should have either offered an instrument approach or another airport. In addition to confusing vectors (how often do you hear an LC issue specific vectors?), comments like “you’re too fast” leaned too much toward LC acting as pilot.
One compliment I will extend to the traffic-pattern-mangler is that he managed to stay clear of the Class B, not always an easy task at KVGT.
One compliment I will extend to the traffic-pattern-mangler is that he managed to stay clear of the Class B, not always an easy task at KVGT.