Rules about pilots leaving the flight deck?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 3,407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If people are so concerned about a pilot leaving the flight deck in the cruise for a personal comfort break and even dare to engage in having a tea/coffee and chat with cabin crew then why not have three pilots on the flight deck or even four?
This would mean pilots could get a proper rest break especially on a long duty day.
Add to this bunk facilities for inflight rest on all flights.
I'm sure the passengers and the airlines would be quite happy to pay for an extra level of safety.
This would mean pilots could get a proper rest break especially on a long duty day.
Add to this bunk facilities for inflight rest on all flights.
I'm sure the passengers and the airlines would be quite happy to pay for an extra level of safety.
Qué ?
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 423 Likes
on
223 Posts
*Whatiffery alert*
Some seem to be almost paranoid about the two staff on the flight deck rule. Mandating that a CC member becomes the second person on the flight deck doesn’t account for a situation where the CC, rather than the pilot taking a break, intends the aircraft take its final nosedive to the surface and have been waiting for said opportunity.
Nor does it take into account a single pilot operation.
My interest is semantic only. I’ve spent much of my career flying aircraft where if I left the flight deck I’d fall out into the air.
Some seem to be almost paranoid about the two staff on the flight deck rule. Mandating that a CC member becomes the second person on the flight deck doesn’t account for a situation where the CC, rather than the pilot taking a break, intends the aircraft take its final nosedive to the surface and have been waiting for said opportunity.
Nor does it take into account a single pilot operation.
My interest is semantic only. I’ve spent much of my career flying aircraft where if I left the flight deck I’d fall out into the air.
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: north of Harlow and south of Cambridge
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
I never minded the addition of a cabin crew…
when the FO left the flight deck. Many were much better looking than the absent FO! And I never made them rush back. I have been fully able to avoid distraction while at the same time fully enjoying the visual improvements.
regarding the German Wings, I strongly suspect that he would not have been so disconnected with reality if a fellow human had been in the flight deck with him at the time. Alone, his mental state could quickly implode when he was the only person in his field of focus and perhaps reacting to the absent Captain. With another human, next to him, bringing another “life” into the flight deck most likely would have prevented his descending into his internal vortex.
regarding the German Wings, I strongly suspect that he would not have been so disconnected with reality if a fellow human had been in the flight deck with him at the time. Alone, his mental state could quickly implode when he was the only person in his field of focus and perhaps reacting to the absent Captain. With another human, next to him, bringing another “life” into the flight deck most likely would have prevented his descending into his internal vortex.
It's bad enough on PPrune with every well meaning enthusiast or SLF clogging up the incident threads, but drawing out in detail the procedures, policies and practices of cockpit access inflight on a public forum is beyond any common sense.
Add me to the list of you and the few others above who seem to possess some situational awareness.
It's bad enough on PPrune with every well meaning enthusiast or SLF clogging up the incident threads, but drawing out in detail the procedures, policies and practices of cockpit access inflight on a public forum is beyond any common sense.
It's bad enough on PPrune with every well meaning enthusiast or SLF clogging up the incident threads, but drawing out in detail the procedures, policies and practices of cockpit access inflight on a public forum is beyond any common sense.
When passenger buys a ticket it's meant for travel with safety an airline that cannot provide it needs to close down. Passenger doesn't have to pay extra for that. If passengers think this way then for pilot error accident they wouldn't accept human factor certificate but will demand punitive refund.
I'll spare my true verbal feelings, my co-workers along with my companies customers and innocents on the ground were slaughtered on 9/11, there is zero sense in making it easier for those that still desire today to pull a repeat of that terrible day. Only an abject fool would consider supplying information like has already been posted in this thread without any thought to it's end use by bad actors.
Yes, Google exists, but why give an inch to make it easier?
There are lots of factors at play. Guess what, when both pilots are present, sometimes one is asleep.
Taking a break or nap is designed to make sure the crew are at their best when really needed for the approach and landing. Sitting for 9 hours in the dark, wide awake in the wee hours without a break is dangerous. Likewise gassing away for 30 mins is unnecessary.
The question though was about the need for a baby sitter:
It takes a crew member away from a busy cabin unnecessarily.
If the pilot becomes incapacitated the AP will happily fly until the other returns.
It doesn’t reduce the risk of a suicidal pilot
it does increase the number of times the cockpit door opens
so make your risk assessment but I for one, will leave the flight deck to stretch my legs, make a cuppa, have a brief chat with the crew and return. I might even do a crossword before top of descent to get my brain working after 8 hours in the dark.
Taking a break or nap is designed to make sure the crew are at their best when really needed for the approach and landing. Sitting for 9 hours in the dark, wide awake in the wee hours without a break is dangerous. Likewise gassing away for 30 mins is unnecessary.
The question though was about the need for a baby sitter:
It takes a crew member away from a busy cabin unnecessarily.
If the pilot becomes incapacitated the AP will happily fly until the other returns.
It doesn’t reduce the risk of a suicidal pilot
it does increase the number of times the cockpit door opens
so make your risk assessment but I for one, will leave the flight deck to stretch my legs, make a cuppa, have a brief chat with the crew and return. I might even do a crossword before top of descent to get my brain working after 8 hours in the dark.
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are lots of factors at play. Guess what, when both pilots are present, sometimes one is asleep.
Taking a break or nap is designed to make sure the crew are at their best when really needed for the approach and landing. Sitting for 9 hours in the dark, wide awake in the wee hours without a break is dangerous. Likewise gassing away for 30 mins is unnecessary.
The question though was about the need for a baby sitter:
It takes a crew member away from a busy cabin unnecessarily.
If the pilot becomes incapacitated the AP will happily fly until the other returns.
It doesn’t reduce the risk of a suicidal pilot
it does increase the number of times the cockpit door opens
so make your risk assessment but I for one, will leave the flight deck to stretch my legs, make a cuppa, have a brief chat with the crew and return. I might even do a crossword before top of descent to get my brain working after 8 hours in the dark.
Taking a break or nap is designed to make sure the crew are at their best when really needed for the approach and landing. Sitting for 9 hours in the dark, wide awake in the wee hours without a break is dangerous. Likewise gassing away for 30 mins is unnecessary.
The question though was about the need for a baby sitter:
It takes a crew member away from a busy cabin unnecessarily.
If the pilot becomes incapacitated the AP will happily fly until the other returns.
It doesn’t reduce the risk of a suicidal pilot
it does increase the number of times the cockpit door opens
so make your risk assessment but I for one, will leave the flight deck to stretch my legs, make a cuppa, have a brief chat with the crew and return. I might even do a crossword before top of descent to get my brain working after 8 hours in the dark.
Last edited by Gizm0; 10th Mar 2023 at 14:20. Reason: Wording
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Metropolis
Posts: 1,270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They might not always be socialising, who knows what they talk about? I was the other day standing in the forward galley with the curtain drawn, the CC wanted me to review some docs on the iPad and asked for my view. I was drinking coffee at the same time, hope that all sits well with you.
On another note, can I ask what is the American policy these days when it comes to one leaving for the loo etc?
On another note, can I ask what is the American policy these days when it comes to one leaving for the loo etc?
§121.543 Flight crewmembers at controls
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each required flight crewmember on flight deck duty must remain at the assigned duty station with seat belt fastened while the aircraft is taking off or landing, and while it is en route.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: s england
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The regulations provide why in the US we can’t have one person alone with a need also to check the peephole:
§121.543 Flight crewmembers at controls
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each required flight crewmember on flight deck duty must remain at the assigned duty station with seat belt fastened while the aircraft is taking off or landing, and while it is en route.
§121.543 Flight crewmembers at controls
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each required flight crewmember on flight deck duty must remain at the assigned duty station with seat belt fastened while the aircraft is taking off or landing, and while it is en route.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: malta
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The regulations provide why in the US we can’t have one person alone with a need also to check the peephole:
§121.543 Flight crewmembers at controls
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each required flight crewmember on flight deck duty must remain at the assigned duty station with seat belt fastened while the aircraft is taking off or landing, and while it is en route.
§121.543 Flight crewmembers at controls
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each required flight crewmember on flight deck duty must remain at the assigned duty station with seat belt fastened while the aircraft is taking off or landing, and while it is en route.
(1) If the crewmember's absence is necessary for the performance of duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft;
(2) If the crewmember's absence is in connection with physiological needs; or
(3) If the crewmember is taking a rest period, and relief is provided -
(i) In the case of the assigned pilot in command during the en route cruise portion of the flight, by a pilot who holds an airline transport pilot certificate not subject to the limitations in § 61.167 of this chapter and an appropriate type rating, is currently qualified as pilot in command or second in command, and is qualified as pilot in command of that aircraft during the en route cruise portion of the flight. A second in command qualified to act as a pilot in command en route need not have completed the following pilot in command requirements: The 6-month recurrent flight training required by § 121.433(c)(1)(iii); the operating experience required by § 121.434; the takeoffs and landings required by § 121.439; the line check required by § 121.440; and the 6-month proficiency check or simulator training required by § 121.441(a)(1); and
(ii) In the case of the assigned second in command, by a pilot qualified to act as second in command of that aircraft during en route operations. However, the relief pilot need not meet the recent experience requirements of § 121.439(b).
Added para (b) for completeness. And this isn't the reason why we have an FA in the cockpit when one of us leaves, getting up to let the other guy in could be a duty in connection with operating the aircraft. These rules predate 9/11. These rules are for duty rest and lav breaks, that is it. The security theater, with locked doors, code words and all the secure info we won't disclose on a public website is in a different place.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: s england
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So the entire argument comes down to ones interpretation of the definition of physiological needs.
interestingly a LHR NBO flight had an incident a while back with an FO on a physiological break.
interestingly a LHR NBO flight had an incident a while back with an FO on a physiological break.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 3,407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
(b) A required flight crewmember may leave the assigned duty station -
(1) If the crewmember's absence is necessary for the performance of duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft;
(2) If the crewmember's absence is in connection with physiological needs; or
(3) If the crewmember is taking a rest period, and relief is provided -
(i) In the case of the assigned pilot in command during the en route cruise portion of the flight, by a pilot who holds an airline transport pilot certificate not subject to the limitations in § 61.167 of this chapter and an appropriate type rating, is currently qualified as pilot in command or second in command, and is qualified as pilot in command of that aircraft during the en route cruise portion of the flight. A second in command qualified to act as a pilot in command en route need not have completed the following pilot in command requirements: The 6-month recurrent flight training required by § 121.433(c)(1)(iii); the operating experience required by § 121.434; the takeoffs and landings required by § 121.439; the line check required by § 121.440; and the 6-month proficiency check or simulator training required by § 121.441(a)(1); and
(ii) In the case of the assigned second in command, by a pilot qualified to act as second in command of that aircraft during en route operations. However, the relief pilot need not meet the recent experience requirements of § 121.439(b).
Added para (b) for completeness. And this isn't the reason why we have an FA in the cockpit when one of us leaves, getting up to let the other guy in could be a duty in connection with operating the aircraft. These rules predate 9/11. These rules are for duty rest and lav breaks, that is it. The security theater, with locked doors, code words and all the secure info we won't disclose on a public website is in a different place.
(1) If the crewmember's absence is necessary for the performance of duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft;
(2) If the crewmember's absence is in connection with physiological needs; or
(3) If the crewmember is taking a rest period, and relief is provided -
(i) In the case of the assigned pilot in command during the en route cruise portion of the flight, by a pilot who holds an airline transport pilot certificate not subject to the limitations in § 61.167 of this chapter and an appropriate type rating, is currently qualified as pilot in command or second in command, and is qualified as pilot in command of that aircraft during the en route cruise portion of the flight. A second in command qualified to act as a pilot in command en route need not have completed the following pilot in command requirements: The 6-month recurrent flight training required by § 121.433(c)(1)(iii); the operating experience required by § 121.434; the takeoffs and landings required by § 121.439; the line check required by § 121.440; and the 6-month proficiency check or simulator training required by § 121.441(a)(1); and
(ii) In the case of the assigned second in command, by a pilot qualified to act as second in command of that aircraft during en route operations. However, the relief pilot need not meet the recent experience requirements of § 121.439(b).
Added para (b) for completeness. And this isn't the reason why we have an FA in the cockpit when one of us leaves, getting up to let the other guy in could be a duty in connection with operating the aircraft. These rules predate 9/11. These rules are for duty rest and lav breaks, that is it. The security theater, with locked doors, code words and all the secure info we won't disclose on a public website is in a different place.
VILAS; We know what a Duty Station is and we are permitted to leave. We do not enter the cabin in order to build public relations but, often, that is an outcome welcomed by the commercial department.
Envious SLF on here would have us in the seat, full harness, headsets on, raybands on, oxymasks & goggles round the neck, ready. Maybe, like the old clark Gable movies, hats on too but with the headset on over the top, from start to end (some 12 hours in many cases.
I would leave the FD, often, but only to engage with female CC in the rear galley in order to arrange down-route, night stop planning. I would return to a smiling, highly competent Secondin Commander with the usual ; " Sorted !".
Envious SLF on here would have us in the seat, full harness, headsets on, raybands on, oxymasks & goggles round the neck, ready. Maybe, like the old clark Gable movies, hats on too but with the headset on over the top, from start to end (some 12 hours in many cases.
I would leave the FD, often, but only to engage with female CC in the rear galley in order to arrange down-route, night stop planning. I would return to a smiling, highly competent Secondin Commander with the usual ; " Sorted !".
