Possible terrorist attempt Stockholm
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It seems that smuggling a gun on board is getting more and more difficult, but how are we to stop someone from throwing a gun over a perimeter fence, once the accomplice is already airside?
I feel that this might be the next possible way ahead for them, watch your backs.
I feel that this might be the next possible way ahead for them, watch your backs.
The Reverend
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but how are we to stop someone from throwing a gun over a perimeter fence, once the accomplice is already airside?
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HotDog,
You must be extremely naive if you can't imagine the following:
Accomplice 1. is an airport worker ie; cleaner, catering, fuelling etc.... He/she has access to all areas and of course can go past any part of the perimeter fence at almost any time, (feel free to imagine a dark night!).
At the airport I work from there's plenty of perimeter fence, where passers by, observers and indeed anyone can come and go Right Next To The Fence on the outside. It's not tall and you could throw a sandbag with ease over it.
Accomplice 2. is a terrorist. He will throw the gun at his mate, because the mate (Accomplice 1.) is vetted and genuinely works at the airport. He has already been through security, so all he has to do is hide the gun, unitl it's needed.
I don't really want to go on with an obvious possible outcome, so, I hope this helps HotDog.
You must be extremely naive if you can't imagine the following:
Accomplice 1. is an airport worker ie; cleaner, catering, fuelling etc.... He/she has access to all areas and of course can go past any part of the perimeter fence at almost any time, (feel free to imagine a dark night!).
At the airport I work from there's plenty of perimeter fence, where passers by, observers and indeed anyone can come and go Right Next To The Fence on the outside. It's not tall and you could throw a sandbag with ease over it.
Accomplice 2. is a terrorist. He will throw the gun at his mate, because the mate (Accomplice 1.) is vetted and genuinely works at the airport. He has already been through security, so all he has to do is hide the gun, unitl it's needed.
I don't really want to go on with an obvious possible outcome, so, I hope this helps HotDog.
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Danny...... My understanding was that this person had the gun in his handluggage. It would therefore be a very feeble attempt at a hijacking if he was relying on getting it past security to carry out his plan, and would not be part of a diabolical plot.
Rather the plans of someone disturbed. However, I don't mean to minimise the threat, just the feasability of his "cunning plan".
I have just heard on the 1300 BBC News that this man was planning to crash the aircraft into a US Embassy "Somewhere in Europe" Given the difficulty of identifying something like a building in the middle of a city (Twin towers excepted) it seems even more like this was a one off. It shows, though, that on the run up to September 11th 2002, there are people out there who want to harm us, and nothing less than total vigilance will do.
Rather the plans of someone disturbed. However, I don't mean to minimise the threat, just the feasability of his "cunning plan".
I have just heard on the 1300 BBC News that this man was planning to crash the aircraft into a US Embassy "Somewhere in Europe" Given the difficulty of identifying something like a building in the middle of a city (Twin towers excepted) it seems even more like this was a one off. It shows, though, that on the run up to September 11th 2002, there are people out there who want to harm us, and nothing less than total vigilance will do.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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El_Sparks,
You suggest that profiling it a "chocolate saucepan". I would suggest that the profile of this individual is remarkably similar to the "shoe bomber" and should have been identified - and I don't mean that he is of Middle East origin and a Muslim. He was late checking in, had hand luggage only and was a single traveller.
One of the features of the present security situation is that there is no cohesive group, more a funding of individuals, some of whom are deeply committed, others of a more unbalanced mind.
It is however pertinent that in a recent conversation with a D of T (?) Inspector he made the point that it was extremely difficult to make "some" low cost carriers aware of the importance of proper security checks after passengers had left the plane and before boarding as they were reluctant to compromise their tight turnround times.
With regard to your complaints about other messages, compare your own to theirs, there is a similarity. Red smilies never look good on a posting.
You suggest that profiling it a "chocolate saucepan". I would suggest that the profile of this individual is remarkably similar to the "shoe bomber" and should have been identified - and I don't mean that he is of Middle East origin and a Muslim. He was late checking in, had hand luggage only and was a single traveller.
One of the features of the present security situation is that there is no cohesive group, more a funding of individuals, some of whom are deeply committed, others of a more unbalanced mind.
It is however pertinent that in a recent conversation with a D of T (?) Inspector he made the point that it was extremely difficult to make "some" low cost carriers aware of the importance of proper security checks after passengers had left the plane and before boarding as they were reluctant to compromise their tight turnround times.
With regard to your complaints about other messages, compare your own to theirs, there is a similarity. Red smilies never look good on a posting.
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sky9 :
That profile would have tagged my father more times than I care to remember - for when he'd be flying to the UK on one-day business trips. Anyone else out there fit the profile from one-day business trips?
Profiling may sound reasonable sky9, but observe the way in which it has been abused in the states - which has a lot more attention paid to checks and balances by police and security checks than I'd be used to - but then again, I'm used to the Irish way of life ...
And yes, I know I'm being intolerant of bigots. The irony isn't lost on me
But what else can you do when people are so angry at someone that they start raging on against vast numbers of people, sometimes without noticing? I dislike getting angry, but reading this thread to date got me very worked up 
You suggest that profiling it a "chocolate saucepan". I would suggest that the profile of this individual is remarkably similar to the "shoe bomber" and should have been identified - and I don't mean that he is of Middle East origin and a Muslim. He was late checking in, had hand luggage only and was a single traveller.
Profiling may sound reasonable sky9, but observe the way in which it has been abused in the states - which has a lot more attention paid to checks and balances by police and security checks than I'd be used to - but then again, I'm used to the Irish way of life ...
And yes, I know I'm being intolerant of bigots. The irony isn't lost on me
But what else can you do when people are so angry at someone that they start raging on against vast numbers of people, sometimes without noticing? I dislike getting angry, but reading this thread to date got me very worked up
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Suspect intended to crash Ryanair into a U.S. Embassy
This should shed a little light on the subject:
NY Times/Reuters Headline
Sweden Says Hijack Suspect Planned U.S. Embassy Attack
By REUTERS
Filed at 9:12 a.m. ET
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - A Swedish man of Tunisian origin, arrested on suspicion he was about to hijack a plane, was planning to crash the aircraft into a U.S. embassy in Europe, Swedish intelligence sources said on Saturday.
The man was arrested on Thursday -- almost a year after the September 11 hijack attacks on the United States -- when a gun was found in his luggage as he boarded a flight to Britain from a small airport west of Stockholm.
Police were looking for four more men, including an explosives expert, who worked with him on the plan, the sources said.
"We know for sure that the plan was to crash the plane into a U.S. embassy in Europe,'' a military intelligence source told Reuters.
NY Times/Reuters Headline
Sweden Says Hijack Suspect Planned U.S. Embassy Attack
By REUTERS
Filed at 9:12 a.m. ET
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - A Swedish man of Tunisian origin, arrested on suspicion he was about to hijack a plane, was planning to crash the aircraft into a U.S. embassy in Europe, Swedish intelligence sources said on Saturday.
The man was arrested on Thursday -- almost a year after the September 11 hijack attacks on the United States -- when a gun was found in his luggage as he boarded a flight to Britain from a small airport west of Stockholm.
Police were looking for four more men, including an explosives expert, who worked with him on the plan, the sources said.
"We know for sure that the plan was to crash the plane into a U.S. embassy in Europe,'' a military intelligence source told Reuters.
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It constantly surprises me that many of the people who complain about xenophobia, intolerance, profiling, stereotyping etc often then launch into an anti-American tirade
As far as 'profiling' in this case goes, the 'suspect' was travelling with a group of 20 self-declared fundamentalist Muslims of the 'Salafi' sect - the same as OBL and Richard 'shoe-bomber' Reid. It now transpires that this small time crook had undergone pilot training in the US. Just how comfortable would you be sharing a plane with him? What about your wife and kids? Just how far do your 'anti-racism' credentials stretch?
As far as 'profiling' in this case goes, the 'suspect' was travelling with a group of 20 self-declared fundamentalist Muslims of the 'Salafi' sect - the same as OBL and Richard 'shoe-bomber' Reid. It now transpires that this small time crook had undergone pilot training in the US. Just how comfortable would you be sharing a plane with him? What about your wife and kids? Just how far do your 'anti-racism' credentials stretch?
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
BBC have now reported that Swedish authorities are denying that this mans intentions were to hijack the a/c and force it to crash on an unspecified US embassy. They are saying though, that this man has received some sort of pilot training in the US in the past.
My worry is that because this person does seem to have a certain 'profile' as is being reported (although I think the quality of the reporting appears to be rather limited and poorly researched) and IF his intention was a hijack then he should never have got as far as the check-in desk, never mind the x-ray machine before the departure lounge. Well trained profilers who are well briefed with intelligence from other government security agencies are a formidable deterrent to any terrorist organisation. It may not be PC but it is a lot cheaper than another success for Al Queida or any other organisation of indoctrinated murderers.
My worry is that because this person does seem to have a certain 'profile' as is being reported (although I think the quality of the reporting appears to be rather limited and poorly researched) and IF his intention was a hijack then he should never have got as far as the check-in desk, never mind the x-ray machine before the departure lounge. Well trained profilers who are well briefed with intelligence from other government security agencies are a formidable deterrent to any terrorist organisation. It may not be PC but it is a lot cheaper than another success for Al Queida or any other organisation of indoctrinated murderers.
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More information:
August 31, 2002
Swedish Man Said to Target U.S. Embassy; Official Refutes Report
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
STOCKHOLM, Sweden -- A man arrested at a Swedish airport after a gun was found in his carryon luggage was not planning a hijacking, his lawyer said Saturday, amid reports that the suspect had attended flight school in the United States.
The director of the national security police, meanwhile, denied a report that the suspect was planning to crash the aircraft into a U.S. embassy in Europe and that they were looking for four men connected to the plan.
"It's false information. ... I deny it absolutely," security police director Margareta Linderoth told The Associated Press. "We are not looking for four more men."
The 29-year-old suspect, identified by the defense attorney as Kerim Chatty, a Muslim, was detained Thursday at Vaesteraas airport in central Sweden as he prepared to board a Ryanair flight to London. Police said he was on his way with a group to an Islamic conference in Birmingham, England.
Several passengers already aboard the aircraft were evacuated while police searched the cabin and luggage compartment. The plane took off for its original destination several hours late without the suspect and the group police believed he was traveling with.
The suspect was being held on a preliminary charge of planning to hijack a plane. A hearing will be held in a few days to determine if the man should remain in custody until prosecutors decide whether to charge him.
Linderoth said her agency, known as SAPO, was working with local police and was investigating a possible link to terrorism. She also confirmed a media report that the man had an incomplete pilot education from the United States.
But she stressed that was just one part of the investigation and she declined to comment further on the motive.
"It's too early to say," she said, also denying reports that Swedish police had called for help from British experts. "We don't need experts from other countries."
Meanwhile, defense attorney Nils Uggla said his client can explain why he carried a gun in a toilet-articles bag and that Chatty regrets causing trouble for the 20 people booked on the same flight to Britain who also were detained for questioning and later released.
"He denies that this has anything at all to do with terrorism or airplane hijacking," Uggla told The Associated Press by telephone. "He is deeply sorry that he caused trouble for the others who were traveling."
Police said the suspect had been convicted of theft and assault.
The Swedish tabloid Aftonbladet reported on Saturday that the suspect had attended flight school in Conway, S.C. The paper quoted Jim Trautman, an official at the North American Institute of Aviation, as saying the suspect had studied at the school.
"Unfortunately I cannot see whether he finally received a diploma or not," Trautman was quoted as saying.
Ursula Alford, office manager at the North American Institute of Aviation in Conway, said she didn't remember anyone named Kerim Chatty or anyone matching his description studying at the school during the 21 years she's worked there. She said Trautman told her he doesn't recall anyone matching the description training there either.
Uggla would not comment on the report. He said he had spoken to Chatty by phone and would meet him Sunday at a police station in Vaesteraas, 60 miles northwest of the capital, Stockholm.
Uggla also wouldn't confirm that his client was heading to an Islamic conference as police said, but confirmed he was Muslim and on his way to Birmingham.
August 31, 2002
Swedish Man Said to Target U.S. Embassy; Official Refutes Report
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
STOCKHOLM, Sweden -- A man arrested at a Swedish airport after a gun was found in his carryon luggage was not planning a hijacking, his lawyer said Saturday, amid reports that the suspect had attended flight school in the United States.
The director of the national security police, meanwhile, denied a report that the suspect was planning to crash the aircraft into a U.S. embassy in Europe and that they were looking for four men connected to the plan.
"It's false information. ... I deny it absolutely," security police director Margareta Linderoth told The Associated Press. "We are not looking for four more men."
The 29-year-old suspect, identified by the defense attorney as Kerim Chatty, a Muslim, was detained Thursday at Vaesteraas airport in central Sweden as he prepared to board a Ryanair flight to London. Police said he was on his way with a group to an Islamic conference in Birmingham, England.
Several passengers already aboard the aircraft were evacuated while police searched the cabin and luggage compartment. The plane took off for its original destination several hours late without the suspect and the group police believed he was traveling with.
The suspect was being held on a preliminary charge of planning to hijack a plane. A hearing will be held in a few days to determine if the man should remain in custody until prosecutors decide whether to charge him.
Linderoth said her agency, known as SAPO, was working with local police and was investigating a possible link to terrorism. She also confirmed a media report that the man had an incomplete pilot education from the United States.
But she stressed that was just one part of the investigation and she declined to comment further on the motive.
"It's too early to say," she said, also denying reports that Swedish police had called for help from British experts. "We don't need experts from other countries."
Meanwhile, defense attorney Nils Uggla said his client can explain why he carried a gun in a toilet-articles bag and that Chatty regrets causing trouble for the 20 people booked on the same flight to Britain who also were detained for questioning and later released.
"He denies that this has anything at all to do with terrorism or airplane hijacking," Uggla told The Associated Press by telephone. "He is deeply sorry that he caused trouble for the others who were traveling."
Police said the suspect had been convicted of theft and assault.
The Swedish tabloid Aftonbladet reported on Saturday that the suspect had attended flight school in Conway, S.C. The paper quoted Jim Trautman, an official at the North American Institute of Aviation, as saying the suspect had studied at the school.
"Unfortunately I cannot see whether he finally received a diploma or not," Trautman was quoted as saying.
Ursula Alford, office manager at the North American Institute of Aviation in Conway, said she didn't remember anyone named Kerim Chatty or anyone matching his description studying at the school during the 21 years she's worked there. She said Trautman told her he doesn't recall anyone matching the description training there either.
Uggla would not comment on the report. He said he had spoken to Chatty by phone and would meet him Sunday at a police station in Vaesteraas, 60 miles northwest of the capital, Stockholm.
Uggla also wouldn't confirm that his client was heading to an Islamic conference as police said, but confirmed he was Muslim and on his way to Birmingham.
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I am perfectly prepared to believe that this man was a potential hijacker, but it gets a bit far fetched to suggest that he planned to crash into a US embassy or wherever. Even if, all alone, he takes and keeps control of the a/c (nobody to watch his back) and assuming he is an ATPL, how will he find any US embassy? Do Ryanair carry A to Zs of European capitals? How easily could anyone find Grosvenor Square, and thus the Embassy? Let's not get too excited about particular targets. Of course some very large and well known buildings are potentially vulnerable, but in this case, it's unlikely.
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Suspect is FAA licensed private pilot
Here are the FAA records on this suspect:
KERIM SADOK CHATTY
Address
Address is not available
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medical
Medical Class : First Medical Date: 07/1996
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certificates
1 of 1
DOI : 05/04/1997
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT
Rating(s):
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
Also, if his attorney says he is innocent, then he must be innocent. Right??
KERIM SADOK CHATTY
Address
Address is not available
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medical
Medical Class : First Medical Date: 07/1996
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certificates
1 of 1
DOI : 05/04/1997
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT
Rating(s):
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
Also, if his attorney says he is innocent, then he must be innocent. Right??
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I have to agree with Brizzo on this - its a bit far-fetched to say that he was going to fly into an American Embassy - I have enough trouble finding it when I'm driving, let alone wizzing around London in a 737.
I seem to remember that on Sept 11 the a/c that crashed in Washington onto the Pentagon was supposed to be going for the White House but couldn't find it. If you can't see the White House from 1000' what chance an Embassy?
I seem to remember that on Sept 11 the a/c that crashed in Washington onto the Pentagon was supposed to be going for the White House but couldn't find it. If you can't see the White House from 1000' what chance an Embassy?
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Meanwhile, defense attorney Nils Uggla said his client can explain why he carried a gun
Whatever the story here. the Swedes have done us a big favour. No major incidents for almost a year, guard coming down, people (including me) bitching about bumbling screeners, uproar/poo-pooing about anniversary concerns (see related thread) etc.
Big wake-up call, just when needed.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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"Sparky"
The fact that the profile would "tag" your father does not make him a terrorist, it would simply make him someone worthy of taking a closer look at. Having done that he would then have been allowed to go on his merry and profitable way.
The more that comes out on this the more interesting the question as to whether this was good information or luck.
I see that DL was very bullish in the Daily Tel. today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...31/nhij231.xml
The fact that the profile would "tag" your father does not make him a terrorist, it would simply make him someone worthy of taking a closer look at. Having done that he would then have been allowed to go on his merry and profitable way.
The more that comes out on this the more interesting the question as to whether this was good information or luck.
I see that DL was very bullish in the Daily Tel. today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...31/nhij231.xml
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Whatever the resolution of this incident, it highlights the problem that no guarantee exists regarding professionalism on the part of troublemakers. Defensive strategies must include means for handling the crazy and inept alongside skilled and focussed psychopaths, with all shades of variation along the way.
For that reason, multiple counter-methods that are effective, cost efficient, and practical need to be deployed - as a matter of regular practice - to deal with the problem. Rather than debate whether A is better than B and C, etc., it makes sense to do everything now which can produce results and is economically and operationally feasible, then manage the evolution toward greater social sensitivity and better economy. A wide range of preventative measures, including improved physical security, background checks and profiling, inspection and random re-inspection, defensive methods, etc. will need to become an integral component of aviation procedure for the span of time - surely decades - needed to work down to the many roots and terminate these problems near their source.
For that reason, multiple counter-methods that are effective, cost efficient, and practical need to be deployed - as a matter of regular practice - to deal with the problem. Rather than debate whether A is better than B and C, etc., it makes sense to do everything now which can produce results and is economically and operationally feasible, then manage the evolution toward greater social sensitivity and better economy. A wide range of preventative measures, including improved physical security, background checks and profiling, inspection and random re-inspection, defensive methods, etc. will need to become an integral component of aviation procedure for the span of time - surely decades - needed to work down to the many roots and terminate these problems near their source.
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Who cares what religion, motives, target this HUMAN BEING may of had.
Simple fact remains that the Swedish Security Agents did their job and prevented a person boarding an aircraft with a firearm.
Airport Security vigilance would seem to have paid off, probably because the agent in question has become more aware since 9/11 and probably even stopped a F/O from carrying his multi tool onto his flight earlier.
Just be thankful that Security has become more interested in examining ANYTHING that may cause interference with your flight.
Well done that man!
Simple fact remains that the Swedish Security Agents did their job and prevented a person boarding an aircraft with a firearm.
Airport Security vigilance would seem to have paid off, probably because the agent in question has become more aware since 9/11 and probably even stopped a F/O from carrying his multi tool onto his flight earlier.
Just be thankful that Security has become more interested in examining ANYTHING that may cause interference with your flight.
Well done that man!
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I, like everyone else was deeply shocked to see what is presumed to be another hijack atempt of an aircraft. I am not making light of what happened on 9/11, it indeed was terrible but it happened in New York, a world away for some people. Most of the members here, that are British, Irish would not have known the pilots and crew that suffered at the hands of terrorists last year.
This latest incident on the other hand has really hit home for me. I know a lot of Ryanair pilots and cabin crew. Had this individual succeeded I may have lost friends of mine. Is it not time to stop presuming what goes on with security and start to take responsibility for what we know. I as a pax would not mind checking in 3-4 hours before a flight if I thought that it was then going to be safe because all procedures had been followed and all checks made. Let us all do our best to keep our skys safe before we sit here and mourn the loss of one of our friends, one perhaps like you or me, that you may have innocently talked to the night before. Think about it my friends
This latest incident on the other hand has really hit home for me. I know a lot of Ryanair pilots and cabin crew. Had this individual succeeded I may have lost friends of mine. Is it not time to stop presuming what goes on with security and start to take responsibility for what we know. I as a pax would not mind checking in 3-4 hours before a flight if I thought that it was then going to be safe because all procedures had been followed and all checks made. Let us all do our best to keep our skys safe before we sit here and mourn the loss of one of our friends, one perhaps like you or me, that you may have innocently talked to the night before. Think about it my friends