Leatherman and Swiss army Knives
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Forbidding leathermans and swiss army knives only goes so far! I think giving crew members weapons would be a better idea and I mean something more intense then leatherman or swiss army knives. It obviously doesn't pay to play it safe with these guys so why not play hard ball with them!?! 
Join Date: Jun 2001
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I get asked 1 in 10 times about my Leatherman.
BUT.........
Isn't it the passengers we should be concerned about here. Why over react? Pilots are not the ones threatening the safety of the aircraft.
As for the guy who doesn't see a need for a Leatherman. I can only assume you've never been stuck down route with no engineering cover and a bulb blown that you can't remove with your fingers. What do you do cancel the flight? Used mine a number of times for domestic uses when in a hotel (cutting labels off, opening broken zips etc).
BUT.........
Isn't it the passengers we should be concerned about here. Why over react? Pilots are not the ones threatening the safety of the aircraft.
As for the guy who doesn't see a need for a Leatherman. I can only assume you've never been stuck down route with no engineering cover and a bulb blown that you can't remove with your fingers. What do you do cancel the flight? Used mine a number of times for domestic uses when in a hotel (cutting labels off, opening broken zips etc).
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Fish please do not be silly.
I carry in my flight bag a set of screwdrivers, 2 pairs of pliers, a leatherman, duct tape, asorted light bulbs and a mag-lite. They all get used regularly to fix small stuff related to the comfort of the pax or the galley equipment.
And NO it doesn't impress the blokes!
I carry in my flight bag a set of screwdrivers, 2 pairs of pliers, a leatherman, duct tape, asorted light bulbs and a mag-lite. They all get used regularly to fix small stuff related to the comfort of the pax or the galley equipment.
And NO it doesn't impress the blokes!
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Are we just discussing Leathermen and Swiss Army knives here or can we widen the discussion to include all multi-pliers and folding utility knives?
Can the plural of Leatherman be Leathermen or should it be Leathermans?
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: NoSurrender ]
Can the plural of Leatherman be Leathermen or should it be Leathermans?
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: NoSurrender ]
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Guns have been outlawed for years. Did that stop the criminals? Now knives are to be banned. Will that stop the criminals? The only people harmed by these rules are the law abiding folks who use these tools responsibly. Criminals by their very nature do not obey laws!
Pilots with side arms in their bags would have stopped at least one of these hijackings, (in my opinion!). The only reason these terrorists got away with this, is they knew noone else had weapons!
Pilots with side arms in their bags would have stopped at least one of these hijackings, (in my opinion!). The only reason these terrorists got away with this, is they knew noone else had weapons!
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I agree with Peter. Arming the flight crew (and ensuring they are reasonably trained and certified to carry a firearm) may be the way to go. After all, many crewmembers today are former military who've already got some experience, and we all have to pass a background check that would make licensing to carry a weapon a not-so-difficult task once there was a decision to do so.
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What happens if a crew attacks hijackers in future only to have an otherwise "routine" hijacking go horribly wrong? Are we to assume that all future hijackings will result in such trajedy as was visited upon NYC Tuesday afternoon?
Join Date: Mar 2001
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The real problem with this is people. Desperate people. Fanatical People. People willing to sacrifice their own lives.
The real weapon the hijackers had was their numbers, their willingness to sacrifice their own lives and their training.
A regular crew and pax had little chance against such people.
What can we do to stop this happening again ?
1. Psychological screening of all pax ?
2. Identity cards ?
3. Armed guards on all flights ?
It's terrifying, and all the security screening for knives and weapons is barely addressing the issue. The real danger is people.
The real weapon the hijackers had was their numbers, their willingness to sacrifice their own lives and their training.
A regular crew and pax had little chance against such people.
What can we do to stop this happening again ?
1. Psychological screening of all pax ?
2. Identity cards ?
3. Armed guards on all flights ?
It's terrifying, and all the security screening for knives and weapons is barely addressing the issue. The real danger is people.
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I'm all for giving flight crews some means of cockpit/cabin defense. Potential terrorists/hi-jackers will always find some way to buck the system and sneak things through as many have already pointed out. But the problem really lies in how to create an effective and safe means of defense or defensive strategy.
Think about it - the flight deck is about the most vunerable location (other than the aft lavatories) you can stick a person. Add to this, that the occupants of the deck work with their backs to the door puts us at an immediate disadvantage. Even in basic mil training we were taught never to do this for a variety of reasons. (Maybe we should bring back Flight Engineers.) Close circuit TV would help, but you can't be looking at it all the time. 'Trip' sensors perhaps? Wouldn't be of much help if the cockpit door was rushed. Electrified door handles? Mace (or similar aerosol) dispensers in the access corridor? In reality the best early warning system is the cabin crew if they are provided with the means to quickly and secretly notify the flight deck.
As for firearms on the flight deck - hmmm, I'm not so sure about THAT. I've personally seen too many people exercise poor judgement with a firearm, particularly civvies and those who use them infrequently. I've seen recruits who have had drill after drill instilled in them and still screw-up on the firing range when under pressure or something goes pear-shaped. Not to mention the risk of having a ballistic weapons fire in a pressure hull. And what if you shot a first class passenger by accident (looking back from the cockpit) ...
Just a few thoughts on the matter ...
Think about it - the flight deck is about the most vunerable location (other than the aft lavatories) you can stick a person. Add to this, that the occupants of the deck work with their backs to the door puts us at an immediate disadvantage. Even in basic mil training we were taught never to do this for a variety of reasons. (Maybe we should bring back Flight Engineers.) Close circuit TV would help, but you can't be looking at it all the time. 'Trip' sensors perhaps? Wouldn't be of much help if the cockpit door was rushed. Electrified door handles? Mace (or similar aerosol) dispensers in the access corridor? In reality the best early warning system is the cabin crew if they are provided with the means to quickly and secretly notify the flight deck.
As for firearms on the flight deck - hmmm, I'm not so sure about THAT. I've personally seen too many people exercise poor judgement with a firearm, particularly civvies and those who use them infrequently. I've seen recruits who have had drill after drill instilled in them and still screw-up on the firing range when under pressure or something goes pear-shaped. Not to mention the risk of having a ballistic weapons fire in a pressure hull. And what if you shot a first class passenger by accident (looking back from the cockpit) ...
Just a few thoughts on the matter ...
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Cross Check, I agree with all you say but lets face it, you are not going to even try to hijack any form of transport with a tooth brush and razorblades if you know the drivers are armed. The hi jacker would then have to carry somthing more leathal and that would be detected by security,wouldn't it? So we could all fly safely. On second thoughts I think I'll go back to Submarines its safer. PS. my Swiss Army knife (couldn't we have a "Swiss Knife for Foreign Navys") has fixed seats, unblocked sinks, opened, atlas boxes, opened wine bottles down route, been a wonderful source of conversation with the ladies (one of them was so impressed she now has her own!)and been flying for the last two days. As none of the above has had any thing to do with flight safty I will leave it at home now, I do not want the nause if security actally find it.
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My Company's Flight Operations Manual insists that I carry a Flashlight (D-cell) so I guess I'm going to be illegal either way now... I have always carried a leatherman or equivalent to fix numerous little things around the cockpit or cabin. Now My company has said no more knives of any kind,(including butter knives), no leatherman type tools, on any flight in flight kit, hand or checked baggage. Next they will be taking away my pens and issuing crews with soft (non toxic) crayons for cockpit use. Talk about overreaction!!! I guess we'll be expected to give the terrorists a big hug and tell them how much we feel their pain before they blows us to pieces.
Freight God
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Ladies, Gents
let's face the facts: almost everything on board of an aircraft could be used as weapon, be it the D-cell flashlight (provided as part of the equipment from some airlines, the next PBE, a fist aid kit OX bottle, the next fire extinguisher, and maybe even the economy class superlight seat... simply everything. So taking away the lethermans (I always have one in my bag) the Swiss army knives (I also carry that, even two or three), the flashlights etc. will not help at all. But the real question is, are we going to be intimidated by Swiss Army Knives, Leathermans and flashlights? I think we will have to seriously consider hijacking procedures and simply attack anyone with a too small weapon like the above. I mean, let's face it: three guys would not have any problems to agressively stop anone threatening the crew and passengers with a Swiss army knove, no? Use the life west as protection and kick the guy in his balls!
I agree with Kaptin M, why do such showpieces like the Letherman thing. Let's concentrate on hijack prcedures and rewrite the rules. Maybe we have to accept that one casualty ina hijack is acceptable as long as all other survive if someone thretens to kill the flight attendant with the Swiss Army Knife. Much better than to end up in a skyscraper...
A hijacker is a terrorist, so treat him alike!
let's face the facts: almost everything on board of an aircraft could be used as weapon, be it the D-cell flashlight (provided as part of the equipment from some airlines, the next PBE, a fist aid kit OX bottle, the next fire extinguisher, and maybe even the economy class superlight seat... simply everything. So taking away the lethermans (I always have one in my bag) the Swiss army knives (I also carry that, even two or three), the flashlights etc. will not help at all. But the real question is, are we going to be intimidated by Swiss Army Knives, Leathermans and flashlights? I think we will have to seriously consider hijacking procedures and simply attack anyone with a too small weapon like the above. I mean, let's face it: three guys would not have any problems to agressively stop anone threatening the crew and passengers with a Swiss army knove, no? Use the life west as protection and kick the guy in his balls!
I agree with Kaptin M, why do such showpieces like the Letherman thing. Let's concentrate on hijack prcedures and rewrite the rules. Maybe we have to accept that one casualty ina hijack is acceptable as long as all other survive if someone thretens to kill the flight attendant with the Swiss Army Knife. Much better than to end up in a skyscraper...
A hijacker is a terrorist, so treat him alike!
I'd venture to suggest that any knife is of limited use as a weapon, unless the user has been trained in its use as such. Certainly a 2" fruit knife will kill however, if stuck in the right place.
Conversely, a terrorist with a black belt in Kung Fu doesn't need one.
And anybody with a limp and a walking stick has a far more lethal weapon potentially. Similarly a partly metallic false leg will hide many things (anybody read Reach for the Sky ?).
A degree of commonsence would be appropriate I think.
Incidentally swiss army knives do set off the detectors at any BAA airport that I've been through, but I've been a few places (mostly Former Warsaw pact countries)where they don't.
G
Conversely, a terrorist with a black belt in Kung Fu doesn't need one.
And anybody with a limp and a walking stick has a far more lethal weapon potentially. Similarly a partly metallic false leg will hide many things (anybody read Reach for the Sky ?).
A degree of commonsence would be appropriate I think.
Incidentally swiss army knives do set off the detectors at any BAA airport that I've been through, but I've been a few places (mostly Former Warsaw pact countries)where they don't.
G
Paxing All Over The World
The villains of this piece must be laughing at the confusion they have caused those who were not targetted.
Watching the politicians and intelligence/military (of our country and others) whip themselves into a frenzy of pointless 'security measures' is depressing.
Watching the politicians and intelligence/military (of our country and others) whip themselves into a frenzy of pointless 'security measures' is depressing.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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I have carried a swiss army knife with me on the flight deck for 22 years and will continue to do so until my company or the CAA say I can't.
If I have to get out of my seat in an emergency, and the harness fastening will not undo for whatever reason, I'm going to cut the straps. That's why I carry it.
If I have to get out of my seat in an emergency, and the harness fastening will not undo for whatever reason, I'm going to cut the straps. That's why I carry it.
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Fish you're a ****!
If you are the kind of pilot that would never even try to fix anything, I'm glad you're in a different company.
I've had my Swiss Army knife on the flight decks for over 25 years recently superceded by Leatherman Wave and Tools - it should be standard equipment NOT contraband.
It's about time the 'Authorities' had an attack of commonsense, not obstructing people that are trying to DO the job despite all this knee-jerk security.
THERE, at least I feel better.
If you are the kind of pilot that would never even try to fix anything, I'm glad you're in a different company.
I've had my Swiss Army knife on the flight decks for over 25 years recently superceded by Leatherman Wave and Tools - it should be standard equipment NOT contraband.
It's about time the 'Authorities' had an attack of commonsense, not obstructing people that are trying to DO the job despite all this knee-jerk security.
THERE, at least I feel better.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Still the focus is misdirected...remove all the utility knifes, dinner knives and forks to solve the problem. Everyone can eat their food with spoon!!
Oh but wait, I suppose a small wet-stone could sharpen a spoon in no time flat. Better make the in-flight meal cup-o-soup and issue cheap plastic straw (less than 4 mills thick without the chamfer).
Oh but wait, I suppose a small wet-stone could sharpen a spoon in no time flat. Better make the in-flight meal cup-o-soup and issue cheap plastic straw (less than 4 mills thick without the chamfer).
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When I went through security this morning a collegue in front of me put his swiss army knife on the tray as he went through the arch. The security guard insisted on confiscating it, explaining that they had been instructed not to allow any knives past the security point.
Two other collegues put their flight bags on the x ray machine and collected them at the other end. The bags were not searched and we all proceeded to board the bus. Both these bags that went thorugh the x ray machine contained swiss army knives.
Two other collegues put their flight bags on the x ray machine and collected them at the other end. The bags were not searched and we all proceeded to board the bus. Both these bags that went thorugh the x ray machine contained swiss army knives.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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I was departure engineer on a flight to Canada this afternoon and I saw the CSD supervise the removal of all metal cutlery and ice picks. The flight waited while plastic substitutes were found. It's great that we are flying the Atlantic again but how long will it take to run out of the UK's entire stock of plastic cutlery.