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Russia to start making bootleg parts for Boeing and Airbus aircraft.

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Russia to start making bootleg parts for Boeing and Airbus aircraft.

Old 7th Jun 2022, 19:45
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Russia to start making bootleg parts for Boeing and Airbus aircraft.

Just let’s hope we do not find them appearing in the West, they will also make the fleets in Russia unable to be used outside their borders and will be a headache for those leasing companies hoping to regain their property in the future.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...-airbus-parts/
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 03:38
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Well, we found cheap Chinese replacement parts even in our military aircraft, I believe.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 04:02
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Just letís hope we do not find them appearing in the West, they will also make the fleets in Russia unable to be used outside their borders and will be a headache for those leasing companies hoping to regain their property in the future.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...-airbus-parts/
I don't see how any of those planes can re-enter any registry even if repossessed. That ship has sailed.

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Old 8th Jun 2022, 06:55
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Didn't they do it with manufacturer unsupported An-124 spare parts and maintenance before? How did this work out?
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 07:08
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Nothing really new here - they have been doing similar since WW2 - they even copied entire aircraft - eg B29 and DC3 off the top of my head + pirate copies of RR Nene engine of course .
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 09:22
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Originally Posted by longer ron View Post
Nothing really new here - they have been doing similar since WW2 - they even copied entire aircraft - eg B29 and DC3 off the top of my head + pirate copies of RR Nene engine of course .
The Li-2 was a licence-built version of the DC-3, with changes to meet Soviet requirements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisunov_Li-2
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 09:52
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From an easily findable website

Russia has never paid Douglas a cent in license fees.
Although maybe they paid for the first few - but certainly not for the thousands that followed and also other derivatives.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 12:34
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Originally Posted by zambonidriver View Post
I don't see how any of those planes can re-enter any registry even if repossessed. That ship has sailed.
In reality the difficult problem is repossess the airframes. The rest, that is to say, re-enter a registry would be some work, but it is certainly doable.

Take as an exemple N1619A .
-The aircraft was some years at the Brasilian (flag) carrier that went out of business. Maintenance records disappered, maybe conveniently, because many maintenance actions that were done, were latter discovered to be dodgy to say the least ...
-'Sorry', but without those records we can not accept that airframe in our registry.
-Register the aircraft in Africa for a year. Do the maintenance schedule during that time, and provide records of it.
-The aircraft is then accepted at the State that initially, and understandably, had said no.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 12:39
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Originally Posted by Liffy 1M View Post
The Li-2 was a licence-built version of the DC-3, with changes to meet Soviet requirements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisunov_Li-2
And HA-LIX (as featured in the Wiki article) is still performing leisure flights out of BudaŲrs Št weekends - can't get tickets though!
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 13:47
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Originally Posted by zerograv View Post
In reality the difficult problem is repossess the airframes. The rest, that is to say, re-enter a registry would be some work, but it is certainly doable.

Take as an exemple N1619A .
-The aircraft was some years at the Brasilian (flag) carrier that went out of business. Maintenance records disappered, maybe conveniently, because many maintenance actions that were done, were latter discovered to be dodgy to say the least ...
-'Sorry', but without those records we can not accept that airframe in our registry.
-Register the aircraft in Africa for a year. Do the maintenance schedule during that time, and provide records of it.
-The aircraft is then accepted at the State that initially, and understandably, had said no.
Interresting. I would have thought that a missing trail in the history would be a complete non starter, short maybe of a C or D check.

One always learns
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 17:11
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Originally Posted by longer ron View Post
Nothing really new here - they have been doing similar since WW2 - they even copied entire aircraft - eg B29 and DC3 off the top of my head + pirate copies of RR Nene engine of course .
Britain sold the USSR Nene engines with the promise that they wouldn't use them for military aircraft. Then sold them the blueprints.

Stalin: "What fool will sell us his secrets?"

And now we have Kim Jong Un and his nukes.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 18:44
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Originally Posted by zerograv View Post
In reality the difficult problem is repossess the airframes. The rest, that is to say, re-enter a registry would be some work, but it is certainly doable.
Then (assuming the lessors have actually managed to repossess the aircraft) they just need to explain to the next potential lessee that the aircraft may have some counterfeit parts and components fitted, but it's probably OK to fly and anyway they'll be getting a good lease rate ...
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 19:11
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that more or less will assure an AD coming out to ground those MSNs known to be in Russian control.
if the aircraft come back to the lessors at any time in the future, they will be evidence of criminality in bogus parts which is a felony in most states in the world. The civil torts would be fairly clear, would think exemplary damages would be on the table, so don't expect the return of the evidence to lessors anytime at all.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 20:15
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Have things like subscription services for engineering documents been cancelled too? If so, I can't see how safe operation can ever be carried out now. Those MSNs will never be trusted by any competent authority ever again.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 21:54
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The contract jurisdiction is going to be interesting, it's been commented that the UK is the contractually agreed jurisdiction for some or all of these leases, so the reach that the jurisdiction has to the sovereign funds of the Russians as they are facilitating the breaches would make for some good viewing time from the bleachers. There is capital asset value in the region of 25-45 B USD, and that could optimistic. In the big scheme of things, the aviation lessor losses don't compare with the damage that Russia has caused to Ukraine, and to all of the rest of the world as well. Single handedly Putin has exacerbated the risk of impending famine for a considerable part of the world, and set up the conditions for a deep recession or global depression, the latter having quite a track record to leading to other conflicts as well. The argument that the west actally is causing the economic and energy crisis is vacuous; Mrs Putins little son Vlad decided all by his own self to invade a sovereign state and to conduct a criminal undeclared war of aggression, the response to that by the west being forseeaable even though it was extremely unlikely, but it still came about due to the decision of Putin, and the facilitation by big Al Grigoryevich Lukashenko, the lapdog in Belarus, continuing to deepen damage through the self interest of a number of countries that will unfortunately for them are most likely to be voted most likely to most likely get swamped by the economic, famine and energy supply waves starting to build up not he not so far horizon. Most likely. Maybe. At least China is sound. Ooops Evergrande is at least good news for former Enron managers who are free from behind bars, they need the same creativity, as do nearly half of Chinese property developers. Big surprise there.... In 1996, while half of the worlds high rise construction cranes were within 25km of Pudong, the existing occupancy rate for the completed structures was around 3%.... and the buildings keep on coming. In 2020, Forest City in Johor had around 100B in construction happening, funded primarily by... PRC, and the city's buildings that had been completed had occupancy around the barely registerable range... the accounting system that makes that viable seems to defy gravity. The PRC govt's evidence concern with their own economy resulted in forex limitations on the fine people of China, limiting annual payments while many of their population who the developments were targeted to had made deposits by credit card, Alipay etc, and now have a bit of an issue paying for the properties to Country Garden Holdings, Greenland Holdings Corp Ltd, etc. China alone was going to make 2022 interesting, and then along came Mrs Putins little boy Vlad. Pity.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 22:02
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This is part of a wider-ranging exercise in patent violation and Intellectual Property theft which has now been sanctioned by Russian Law. See this week's Economist: https://www.economist.com/business/2...property-theft
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 23:05
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Most of the lessors have already claimed it as a hull loss under a war risk insurance. However if the situation will be resolved within next weeks/months, it is not overcomplicated as people tend to think, there have been a number of unfriendly repossessions from Africa and India in the past with a lack of paperwork, doubtful components etc - all doable but there is a price of doing this for sure.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 00:16
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Originally Posted by ImbracableCrunk View Post
Britain sold the USSR Nene engines with the promise that they wouldn't use them for military aircraft. Then sold them the blueprints.

Stalin: "What fool will sell us his secrets?"

And now we have Kim Jong Un and his nukes.
They also gave the Russians a guided tour of the Rolls Royce production facilities and the with the instructions to walk through the metal swarf to collect samples to be analysed later enabling Russia to learn the material recipes.

This history is correct but omits an important item. The British did indeed sell Rolls-Royce Nene engines to the Soviets in 1947, around which the USSR built the very successful Mig15 and -17. It is also true that the Soviet Union switched to their own version of the RR Nene engine in 1950. How they did it is not disclosed in this report.

They stole it. Although the British were willing to sell RR jet engines, the most advanced in the world at that time, they did not want to lose control over the technology to Russia by licensing the manufacture to them. So Stalin sent technicians to tour the RR factory at the invitation of the British.
The key to the engine, in addition to the design (which the Soviets could, as they so often did, disassemble items from the west and copy each part exactly), was the specification of the metal in the stator, rotor blades, case, etc. These were critical so that the engine did not destroy itself from the heat and extreme temperature it generated.

The Soviet guests wore soft rubber soled shoes when they toured the factory, and showed special interest in each workstation that made the critical parts, allowing the machinist's metal shavings to become embedded in their soft sole shoes. Each 'guest' collected samples from each workstation related to a specific part, and no others, so when they returned to their hotel, they collected the samples for analysis of the metal in Russia.
That is how they were able to replace the British engine with a 'Soviet developed model of the RR engine'. The UK would never had continued to sell Russia engines or parts if they ever became engaged in battle with the US, France or a former close ally.
This is only one of hundreds of stories of how Soviet industrial espionage keep them (nearly) up with the West...but in the end they could not sustain it. Star Wars overwhelmed them before it even got to the early development stages. God bless Ronald Reagan.
http://www.aviastar.org/air/russia/mig-15.php


..

Last edited by NutLoose; 9th Jun 2022 at 11:11.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 00:42
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
They also gave the Russians a guided tour of the Rolls Royce production facilities and the with the instructions to walk through the metal dwarfed to collect samples to be analysed later enabling Russia to learn the material recipes.
Great story. But if they had whole engines already, wouldn't sampling one of those beat walking through swarf?
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 02:44
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Originally Posted by Chu Chu View Post
Great story. But if they had whole engines already, wouldn't sampling one of those beat walking through swarf?
Double check incase of being sent "special engines"
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