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Airlines want Boeing to build 180-250 seats "modern 757", 4500NM range before 2028.

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Airlines want Boeing to build 180-250 seats "modern 757", 4500NM range before 2028.

Old 5th Jan 2022, 12:29
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Originally Posted by Rainier View Post
The 757-300 was a victim of timing in nothing else. The line was shut down immediately after industry contraction from the 9/11 attacks and was also the victim of the merged Boeing-McDonnell Douglas management that focused on Return On Net Assets, which made the Renton factory floor appear expensive. I have been told by those in the know that airlines came back to Boeing after the 757 line had been shut down requesting to purchase more, but by then the decision had been made.

The 757-300 for a long time had the best single-aisle economics, which is why Delta/Northwest used them to replace the DC-10s on their Hawaiian routes, which are the most price competitive in the US. One can see why airlines are asking for a new airplane to fill this niche. Looking back certainly, the continued low fuel prices also played a part in 757-300 orders as it permitted more fuel-inefficient airplanes to continue operating rather than be replaced.


The problem with a 757-300-type replacement is whether the size of the market is sufficient to develop an entire new platform and new engine. With 737Max and A320Neo families offering trans-continental capability, the market for a slightly larger airframe with marginally more range might not be sufficient to drive the per unit costs down low enough to take market share from 737Max/A320Neo airplanes to make the business case work. Rather than use a 757-300 replacement, airlines might just use more frequent 737/A320 flights on the shorter segment to fill the need rather than pay higher acquisition costs for a more fuel efficient narrow body.
I think Airbus could do a bigger A322, trading payload for range. The 101t MTOW A321XLR seems to provide the starting point for a stretch. 3500NM would still be possible with 250 passengers & luggage.
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Old 5th Jan 2022, 22:18
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For ground handling, narrow bodies win. Especially LCC/charter ops on bucket and spade routes. Above wing I can see how a twin aisle is more attractive. However, below wing it needs to be something that can be bulk loaded quickly and easily. Thinking of UK regional bases and greek islands with seasonal staffing and limited capacity the last thing you want to be doing is messing about with ULD's and high loaders. This is the big difference between the 75/76.
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Old 5th Jan 2022, 23:17
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Bulk loading baggage surely is a 1950’s idea that won’t be repeated? Containerised baggage was one of the advantages of the 320 over the 737 cited by my airline when they made their recent future fleet order. ULDs aren’t expensive compared to worker injury compensation.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 05:21
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If pax loading/unloading was performed closer to the middle of the fuselage, say at the first emergency exit, rather than at the very front, then people entering the plane could split into two, moving forward and aft thereby potentially halving the number of people blocking the aisles (depending on the forward/aft split ratio). On the 757 300 there seems to be enough gangway access at the first emergency exit. Perhaps this practice is already routine, I have always boarded at the very front.

Last edited by Cool Guys; 16th Jan 2022 at 05:51.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 12:10
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Perhaps this practice is already routine, I have always boarded at the very front.
Around here the practice is to use both the front and rear doors, achieves the same outcome.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 13:54
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Lightbulb

Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Baring a massive improvement in battery energy density vs. weight (I'm talking an order of magnitude), electric aircraft will never be viable for trips of more than a few hundred miles.
Even not for that distance. Do a back of the envelop calculation about needed kWh stored. If you can support the battery mass with wheels than all is fine, but if you need to fly, we talk minutes flight times. Neither in an all electric fixed wing nor in a helicopter you can lift the batteries for the IFR reserve time. And you need to add any useful leg.
In a combustion engine the heavier oxidiser comes free with the air and you exhaust the even heavier combustion products H2O and CO2. Assume to carry the oxidiser with you like in a rocket and in addition carry all exhaust products. Thats what a battery does in essence. You will wind up with Saturn 5 type weight to payload ratios. Battery weight with 0,4kWh/kg top notch lithium batteries for a 100T Kerosene equivalent is 3200T, which is about a fueled Saturn 5.
It is probably more realistic if you need electric long range transport to go ballistic with a rail gun Jules Verne style...

Last edited by EDLB; 16th Jan 2022 at 14:48.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 14:11
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N.b. the A321 left 'ahead-of-the-wing' emergency exit is in fact a full size boarding door. Same as the other 4, different from the other 3.

Leisure operators don't use containers due to logistics challenges and lack of equipment. Those only makes sens for a specific mission and operation profile which is out of reach for most airlines.

The turn-around times should not be yield critical on a 4500 NM sector proposed. Even if, the most time consuming is the availability of cleaning teams (late arrival, missing supplies and insufficient numbers) which is why the successful ULCC try to get away without them.

On a short (below 2 hrs) sector with a reduced and pay-to-consume catering model this is possible. 9 hrs sector I don't think so, also the cleaning needs to be somewhat deeper than intra-EU experience normally requires.

I mean to say that for the proposed airliner pax, bags and cargo manipulation does not seem to be the limiting element.

Regulatory stick time is (one of them). Whether you can make 7 + 8 hours legs in one day with 3+8 crew, assuming normal complement 2+5. Unfortunately EU has broken that barrier already, US and China not yet AFAIK.

So expect the newly proposed ship to have a full bunk.


​​​​​
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 18:54
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The 757 disappeared from the catalogue because, quite simply, airlines stopped buying it. Notably it had always been sold as a short haul aircraft, there were very few who used it straight from the factory for longer runs, and those (never that many) later used Transatlantic were actually hand-me-downs from domestic services.

That is where most of the demand for this size aircraft traditionally was. It was even unusual for it to appear on US transcontinental nonstops, despite having the range, until the end of its production. By then the A321 was established, and the bulk of the demand for aircraft of this size, especially outside the USA, had moved over.

It's also notable how even those operators of the earlier A321s from the 1990s stopped buying them after a while and went back to the A320. The demand by established carriers for aircraft of this size was hit by the rise of the LCCs, which scooped a good proportion of demand by duplicating their routes. Surprising was the way that BA sold off their large pioneering 757 fleet in the early 2000s, and replaced them with A319s, a fraction of the capacity.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 21:52
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Over the years, at least from 2015 the NMA seemed set to be a small wide body, 2-3-2 cross section.

A wider single aisle could benefit from a big more comfort medium term , specially with 1,5 aisle width, so passengers can pass each other / trolleys during flight and deboarding.

I never saw Airbus or Boeing proposing this however. The Russians have a wider MS21, The biggest version -400 will be longer than the A321.


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Old 17th Jan 2022, 01:39
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
The 757 disappeared from the catalogue because, quite simply, airlines stopped buying it. Notably it had always been sold as a short haul aircraft, there were very few who used it straight from the factory for longer runs, and those (never that many) later used Transatlantic were actually hand-me-downs from domestic services.
The 737NG really killed demand for the 757. Aside from long range, a 737-900 could do most of what a 757-200 could with lower operating costs and it cost a lot less to build than a 757, so Boeing could sell it much cheaper. When the production rate of the 757 got down to 1 or 2 per month, the factory space needed became a killer - in short Boeing could make far more money by devoting that factory space to another 737 line and increasing the 737 production rate.
As far as long range, it's pretty telling that for the PW2000/757, 37k and 40k ratings were available but it was mainly the freight operators that sprung for the 40k - passenger operators staying with the 37k. When we did the Pratt powered 757-300, we offered a 43k rating but it wasn't bought - I'm not sure it was even certified. It's also rather telling that in spite of very good operating costs, no body bought the -300 aside from the launch customers.
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 02:45
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Which begs the question if any airline actually wants
​​​​​what the article research found. It could be just a list of holes that are not covered but nobody will purchase anyway. Which are the killer 3800-4500 NM city pairs?
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 07:43
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FD 3800 - 4500 ?

https://epsilonaviation.wordpress.co...e-a321neo-xlr/
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 08:56
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Originally Posted by keesje View Post
Over the years, at least from 2015 the NMA seemed set to be a small wide body, 2-3-2 cross section.
With a narrowbody, the fuselage would be so long, it would mean a heavy structure to counteract the bending and also very high and/or complex main gear to not have a tail strike on takeoff and landing and still get to an appropriate angle of attack. Going to 2-3-2, like the 767, you are adding a aisle for a single extra chair per row. Aisles do no generate revenue, but do add volume (drag) and weight, making the aircraft increasing the cost per seat.
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 18:50
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Originally Posted by procede View Post
With a narrowbody, the fuselage would be so long, it would mean a heavy structure to counteract the bending and also very high and/or complex main gear to not have a tail strike on takeoff and landing and still get to an appropriate angle of attack. Going to 2-3-2, like the 767, you are adding a aisle for a single extra chair per row. Aisles do no generate revenue, but do add volume (drag) and weight, making the aircraft increasing the cost per seat.
The DC8-63 had the same length or a bit more.. It had an extended fuselage with a length of 57.1 meters, same as of the -61. It has a height of 13.1 meters and a fuselage diameter of 3.74 meters. It is 11.5 meter longer than the conventional DC-8 that was developed in the late 1950s. Some tail strikes and of course there was bending, you could watch from the tail the forward compartments moving from side to side.
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Old 18th Jan 2022, 18:45
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Originally Posted by procede View Post
With a narrowbody, the fuselage would be so long, it would mean a heavy structure to counteract the bending and also very high and/or complex main gear to not have a tail strike on takeoff and landing and still get to an appropriate angle of attack. Going to 2-3-2, like the 767, you are adding a aisle for a single extra chair per row. Aisles do no generate revenue, but do add volume (drag) and weight, making the aircraft increasing the cost per seat.
The 757-300 and the DC8-61/63 called, they beg to differ on the single aisle length. Pretty similar length both of them.
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Old 18th Jan 2022, 21:06
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Originally Posted by procede View Post
With a narrowbody, the fuselage would be so long, it would mean a heavy structure to counteract the bending and also very high and/or complex main gear to not have a tail strike on takeoff and landing and still get to an appropriate angle of attack. Going to 2-3-2, like the 767, you are adding a aisle for a single extra chair per row. Aisles do no generate revenue, but do add volume (drag) and weight, making the aircraft increasing the cost per seat.
Originally Posted by oceancrosser View Post
The 757-300 and the DC8-61/63 called, they beg to differ on the single aisle length. Pretty similar length both of them.
I assume a new Boeing NB would be a bit wider / higher than a 757-300 or DC8. A bigger cross section to improve structural efficiency/ weight and facilitate standard NB containers/ pallets.

Because Boeing now knows these disadvantages of the 757/737 fuselage. They can avoid / reduce them, if they know it will be a 35+ rows aircraft for longer flights.

The biggest variant of the Russian (if ever build) MS21-400 is going to be a 757 class aircraft, nearly 2m longer than an A321.



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Old 18th Jan 2022, 23:15
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"A bigger cross-section to improve weight" ?
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 00:01
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The A321 is 185-230.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus...jet%20versions.

Given that will Airbus waste money on a 250 seat variant?
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 07:12
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Originally Posted by Chris2303 View Post
The A321 is 185-230.

Given that will Airbus waste money on a 250 seat variant?
244 for the A321NEO
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 10:04
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Originally Posted by Chris2303 View Post
The A321 is 185-230.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus...jet%20versions.

Given that will Airbus waste money on a 250 seat variant?
It is not only about the total number of seats, but also about more space for premium seats.
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