Pilot who turned up drunk to fly United Airlines Glasgow to Newark jailed
The best thing would be rehabilitation for alcoholism. Alcoholism can be treated .
Anyone who cannot turn up sober to work needs counselling and possibly rehab .
it can be very sad to watch someone suffering from addictions , much nicer after they get help .
Anyone who cannot turn up sober to work needs counselling and possibly rehab .
it can be very sad to watch someone suffering from addictions , much nicer after they get help .
tdracer
No. But i wouldn't get in a car with a drunk driver either. My point is not that a drunk pilot hasn't transgressed and doesn't need to be sanctioned, my point is I don't see that he's done so any more than a drunk driver- yes, a car driver can kill less people, but statistically is much more likely to do so.
Someone mentioned train drivers- if one is caught over the limit, I imagined they get sacked and fined- but would they get a ten month jail term if they hadn't actually harmed anyone?
No. But i wouldn't get in a car with a drunk driver either. My point is not that a drunk pilot hasn't transgressed and doesn't need to be sanctioned, my point is I don't see that he's done so any more than a drunk driver- yes, a car driver can kill less people, but statistically is much more likely to do so.
Someone mentioned train drivers- if one is caught over the limit, I imagined they get sacked and fined- but would they get a ten month jail term if they hadn't actually harmed anyone?
Gordon3333
As should anyone who gets behind the wheel of a car. In either case there should be punishment. My point is, why is the punishment for a pilot SO much higher then that for a car driver, when the driver is actually FAR more likely to cause death and injury?
As should anyone who gets behind the wheel of a car. In either case there should be punishment. My point is, why is the punishment for a pilot SO much higher then that for a car driver, when the driver is actually FAR more likely to cause death and injury?
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The sentence has to contain a measure of deterrence. Also, it's normal to punish the crime and not merely its outcome. Exceptions exist, but I for one speaking as SLF would wholly support severe sentences for such wilful negligence whether it be a taxi driver, train driver, pilot, boat skipper or whatever. Nobody should ever be allowed to gamble with other people's lives and get off lightly just because they were lucky enough not to kill someone.
Wiz, at least in the US, conviction of a DUI (Driving Under the Influence) will usually get you significant jail time - up to a year in Washington state for a first offense.
10 months for potentially putting hundreds of passengers at risk doesn't sound out of line in comparison.
10 months for potentially putting hundreds of passengers at risk doesn't sound out of line in comparison.
Well, in most of the rest of the world, including the jurisdiction this pilot was jailed in, it's not even a criminal conviction- it's fines and disqualifications from driving for periods- sometimes even with provisions like the driver get's a restriction so he can still drive to work.
And this is my point- it seems the pinishment is nbased on the perception rather than the actual risk.
And editted to add- you're wrong. No offence within the last 7 years? manditory jail time for a DUI in Washington State is 24 HOURS......
Seattle DUI Attorney - Washington State DUI Penalties - DUI Penalties & Laws Washington State, Seattle, WA
And this is my point- it seems the pinishment is nbased on the perception rather than the actual risk.
And editted to add- you're wrong. No offence within the last 7 years? manditory jail time for a DUI in Washington State is 24 HOURS......
Seattle DUI Attorney - Washington State DUI Penalties - DUI Penalties & Laws Washington State, Seattle, WA
Last edited by Wizofoz; 19th Nov 2021 at 23:30.
Remember, those are the minimums. They can still get up to 364 days in the slammer if convicted. Yes, first offenses usually get off fairly lightly, but not always.
Oh, and why do you say "why is the punishment for a pilot SO much higher then that for a car driver, when the driver is actually FAR more likely to cause death and injury"? What can possibly make you believe that an intoxicated pilot is far less likely to cause death and injury than an intoxicated driver? There are large numbers of intoxicated drivers out there pretty much any Friday or Saturday night, yet they don't get into accidents all that often. Do have reason to believe that intoxicated pilots regularly fly safely?
Further, unlike most drivers, pilots are highly trained professionals who regularly have hundreds of lives in their hands - they should be held to a higher standard.
Oh, and why do you say "why is the punishment for a pilot SO much higher then that for a car driver, when the driver is actually FAR more likely to cause death and injury"? What can possibly make you believe that an intoxicated pilot is far less likely to cause death and injury than an intoxicated driver? There are large numbers of intoxicated drivers out there pretty much any Friday or Saturday night, yet they don't get into accidents all that often. Do have reason to believe that intoxicated pilots regularly fly safely?
Further, unlike most drivers, pilots are highly trained professionals who regularly have hundreds of lives in their hands - they should be held to a higher standard.
Wizofoz
... the jurisdiction this pilot was jailed in, it's not even a criminal conviction ...
Conviction for a DUI in Scotland is most definitely a criminal conviction and it is worth noting that Scotland has a lower breath/alcohol limit than the rest of the UK.
A conviction carries a minimum disqualification period of 12 months as well as the possibility of a prison term of up to six months and a fine of up to £5,000 for a first offence.
https://www.mygov.scot/drink-drive-limit-scotland
... the jurisdiction this pilot was jailed in, it's not even a criminal conviction ...
Conviction for a DUI in Scotland is most definitely a criminal conviction and it is worth noting that Scotland has a lower breath/alcohol limit than the rest of the UK.
A conviction carries a minimum disqualification period of 12 months as well as the possibility of a prison term of up to six months and a fine of up to £5,000 for a first offence.
https://www.mygov.scot/drink-drive-limit-scotland
I be interested in a case, equivelent to this in terms of level of intixication, where it WASN'T lenient. It was this guys first offence, and bang- 10 months.
Because a SOBER pilot is far less likely to cause injury than a SOBER driver- Aviation today is many times safer than driving, and the things that make driving more dangerous- basically proximity to things you can run into-are magnififed even more by intoxication.
Unless you believe every pilot who turns up intoxicated is caught, then yes, there seem to be people getting away with it, as there are very few accidents where alcohol is a factor.
Yes- and loss of job, career and professional qualification would be holding them to that higher standard- but my contention is they haven't done anything worthy of greater CRIMINAL sanction.
Oh, and why do you say "why is the punishment for a pilot SO much higher then that for a car driver, when the driver is actually FAR more likely to cause death and injury"? What can possibly make you believe that an intoxicated pilot is far less likely to cause death and injury than an intoxicated driver?
Bellerophon
Thanks- but I'd be suprised if any first time DUI offender, absent any other record, recieved a custodial sentence- can you cite one?
Thanks- but I'd be suprised if any first time DUI offender, absent any other record, recieved a custodial sentence- can you cite one?
Even if they are not that professional, the consequences of being caught are so severe that someone who was smart enough to become a professional pilot would be smart enough to not let it happen.
The sheer naiivety of so many of the above posts is surprising.
If young (and some not so young) people get together in an exotic new environment with time on their hands it can hardly be unexpected that some, sometime, will go on the piss and overdo it with regard to report times the following day.
Professionalism notwithstanding, shaving the limits is inevitably going to happen fairly often.
Sure, it happens far less than it used to - time was when it was pretty much the norm, and that was not too long ago either, but to imagine that it is unusual nowadays is, I think, rather surprising.
If young (and some not so young) people get together in an exotic new environment with time on their hands it can hardly be unexpected that some, sometime, will go on the piss and overdo it with regard to report times the following day.
Professionalism notwithstanding, shaving the limits is inevitably going to happen fairly often.
Sure, it happens far less than it used to - time was when it was pretty much the norm, and that was not too long ago either, but to imagine that it is unusual nowadays is, I think, rather surprising.
Last edited by meleagertoo; 21st Nov 2021 at 12:14.
Amongst various issues with this post the effect of intoxicating substance on a pilot could be construed as being more likely to cause injury (or death) given there's another vector dimension to flying, that there are typically many more people directly involved (slf), not to mention that the velocity at which aircraft typically travel at is much higher than most ground-based vehicles etc etc.
Last edited by First_Principal; 20th Nov 2021 at 20:22. Reason: The 'quote' messed up
Think about this for a second. PPRuNe - Professional Pilots Rumour Network.
We have posters on a Professional Pilots form basically defending flying paying passengers while intoxicated.
Sometimes you just can't make this
up.
I pray I never end up a passenger with one of you in the pointy end.
We have posters on a Professional Pilots form basically defending flying paying passengers while intoxicated.
Sometimes you just can't make this
up.I pray I never end up a passenger with one of you in the pointy end.
Trouble is td you have crews who are effectively flying whilst intoxicated every day. There are numerous studies of pilot fatigue that have equated their fatigue level to a particular level of intoxication, study results are readily accessible by a web search, don't want to give the mod a heap of reading otherwise would post links. It's OK to flog crews so they are effectively intoxicated, but they can't drink. Well, just a bit of reading perhaps. 
https://upperlimitaviation.edu/stres...e-in-aviation/
https://upperlimitaviation.edu/stres...e-in-aviation/
Megan, I understand what you're saying - and yes serious fatigue is also dangerous.
The difference is that fatigue is not easily measured, or often controlled (getting a lousy nights sleep isn't always within an individuals control).
Alcohol and other drugs are very much within the individuals control.
The difference is that fatigue is not easily measured, or often controlled (getting a lousy nights sleep isn't always within an individuals control).
Alcohol and other drugs are very much within the individuals control.
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Pilot CRM courses should tackle this topic. Some of us will stay up till 3am on our body clocks just to get a drink in before next report. We rush to the bar like our lives depend on it. It's sad and pathetic.
First_Principal
Sure- there is also an extra person n the flight deck aleviating the situation.
Look at is this way- drunk drivers involved in accidents were obviously only detected BECAUSE they were involved in the accidant. The virtual absense of alchohol related aviation incidents suggests the few who have turned up over the limit and noit been caught have NOT caused accients.
Sure- there is also an extra person n the flight deck aleviating the situation.
Look at is this way- drunk drivers involved in accidents were obviously only detected BECAUSE they were involved in the accidant. The virtual absense of alchohol related aviation incidents suggests the few who have turned up over the limit and noit been caught have NOT caused accients.
The accident rate for commercial airliners is, of course, very low. If one pilot being over the limit doubled the risk, it would have to happen pretty often before it would be statistically likely to cause an accident. It doesn't necessarily follow that a doubled risk on a particular flight is acceptable.
TWA prohibited cockpit crew members from partaking in any alcohol consumption while on layovers
I doubt that stopped many people but maybe that type of policy is inevitable
Great shame, having a couple of drinks responsibly in good company was one of the delights of the job and a good stress reliever
I doubt that stopped many people but maybe that type of policy is inevitable
Great shame, having a couple of drinks responsibly in good company was one of the delights of the job and a good stress reliever