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734 hard landing @ Exeter

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734 hard landing @ Exeter

Old 22nd May 2022, 16:53
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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What I see more than a destabilised approach is an oscillating approach with textbook like waveforms - or shall we say repeating cycles of divergence / overcorrection until the ground got in the way.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 21:35
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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"Having many hours doesn’t automatically mean you are suitable to be a captain."

This is manifestly true. Unfortunately, add a pilot union into the mix which will protect and promote even it's most brain-dead progeny unto the barricades and watch the crash rate increase. cf. Air France

Last edited by Dropp the Pilot; 22nd May 2022 at 23:44.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 22:25
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
That's a tad unfair on the AAIB. While it doesn't specifically use what the NTSB terms "probable cause" and "contributory factors", the section in the report labelled "Conclusions" is pretty unambiguous:



Without the ability to get inside the heads of the crew, what more would you like to have seen?
I've checked if your quotation of the report is accurate. It is.

The aircraft suffered a hard landing as a result of the approach being continued after it
became unstable after the aircraft had past the point where the crew had declared the
approach stable and continued.
(from https://assets.publishing.service.go...JMCY_07-22.pdf )

What I'd like to have seen is a report without grammatical mistakes (past/passed). This is in the 'Conclusion' section, which, presumably, has been read and approved by at least one other person than the writer, and who could be assumed to either have decent English, or access to a technical writer/copy editor.

"It's just a typo!", you may cry - and indeed, writing 'has passed' or 'was past' both parse correctly, even if the sentence structure is strained. However, the AAIB is meant to demonstrate competence, so readers of the report have confidence in the conclusions, and if a simple error like this gets though, it makes the reader wonder how many other errors in their work are not so noticeable. Presentation is important if you want to appear competent. Details matter, especially when your organisation is expected to routinely make painstaking investigations. If you can't get the basics right, what else is going wrong?
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Old 23rd May 2022, 05:50
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying View Post
What I see more than a destabilised approach is an oscillating approach with textbook like waveforms - or shall we say repeating cycles of divergence / overcorrection until the ground got in the way.
Yep, when you start correcting the pitch, when you pass the intended glide slope, you can be sure to be oscillating. Just take care your pitch is roughly matching what is needed for the glideslope, when you get on the dots and your oscillation dampens out (fast).

The DRU figures clearly show the aircraft pitch only starts to change, when passing the glideslope, not before the glideslope is reached.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 20:47
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Semreh,

Written by an Inspector (or maybe Senior Inspector, which is usually an Inspector who’s managed to stay in the job for two years), looked at by at least two other Inspectors (or Senior Inspectors) probably in more than one meeting, messed about with by a Principal Inspector, probably in more than one meeting, then checked by the Deputy or Chief Inspector.

Yes, past/passed is poor. As was Stanstead not long ago. But I maintain that some effort to explain why an airline pilot couldn’t land, would have been a good thing to include.

Last edited by Furniture Saver; 23rd May 2022 at 21:11.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 22:20
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
Moreover, the modern day company policy of openly "positive" discrimination towards applicants of a certain characteristic, and thereafter, a disinclination to remove substandard pilots of said characteristic from the line for fear of blowback, may be the cause of the confidential data I saw which showed they account for a vastly greater proportion of severe handling incidents, (notably, landings). Of course, woke PC will no doubt prevent such data from ever seeing the light of day.
It would greatly concern me if such information were held to be 'secret', given that it could have the potential to make a positive impact on risk assessment, training and so forth.

Unfiltered raw data on incidents/accidents correlated to age, hours, gender, position etc should be accessible so that *if* there's anything to this then trainers, regulators, employers, (and the public who get on a flying machine) may all be able to complete due diligence and reach conclusions on whether there are any statistically significant issues and, if so, how one might address them.

If, once thorough investigation has been carried out, there is something to be addressed then that detail must also be available to everyone without 'spin'. Should different groups then wish to exercise various opinions as to why it's 'better' to have statistically risky people in such positions that's up to them, but from a logic perspective there's be no excuse IMO. After all we'd not use components with a known low MTBF during overhaul when there are better ones available, would we?

In saying this I'm quite aware that there could be many reasons why one group might initially appear to have a greater number of incidents than another - it may in fact be nothing to do with biological factors - however without the necessary [unbiased] data it's extremely difficult to make any reasonable assessment. In the absence of traceable facts people are left to speculate, which can be quite corrosive.

Ultimately it's a complicated thing designing, building, and testing an aircraft, then getting it into the air, full of people, along to a destination and back without incident. Along that journey we try to use the highest quality components, the best people, the most proven systems, and we (hopefully thoroughly, scientifically without bias, and publically) regularly assess how that's going on so that any weaknesses or issues may be addressed. Factors relating to the drivers of these machines should not be exempted from such scrutiny, they are an important part of the process we presently utilise.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 23:11
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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West Atlantic safety record is good
Apart from this incident, the recent AAIB investigation into the load shift and that AAIB coverage of that horror story of an ATP crosswind landing at Birmingham, you mean?
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Old 24th May 2022, 18:11
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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The AAIB in now sadly like the CAA.

In my personal opinion an organisation with zero credibility, a once formidable global reputation for probity, rigour and technical excellence is no more.

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Old 25th May 2022, 02:08
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
First principal - personally I think at the that female pilots are just as likely to make good or bad pilots as males at the outset, and gender aptitude is not the hypothesis anyway. It's the discrimination in favour of females at the recruitment, and training washout phases and the lower standard that logically follows. Yes, training departments will assert that minimum standards are maintained, and even accepting that to be true (debatable), but by narrowing the candidature based on gender, minimum standards could otherwise have been exceeded by a greater margin by not discriminating. Discrimination is bad, whatever it's form (eg gender percentages, quotas etc).
What instructor is going to wash out a female. A certain percentage of each gender that washes out will make false claims against an examiner. It could very well be the same percentage. But our society will immediately jump out in favour of the female pilot while ignoring the male pilot and examiner can kiss his training job goodbye. Perhaps he will have said Miss instead of Ms that got him suspended. Or perhaps it doesn't matter because ...."we have to believe".

The dangers of woke to aviation and so much else. Exaggeration? How did that 767 guy at Atlas end up flying the line.
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Old 25th May 2022, 04:16
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Ageing pilots is another factor. Whilst a number maintain their skills to the end of their career, it is an inconvenient truth to a lot of us older posters that this can also be a factor. I donít think any one of the holes in the swiss cheese can be singled out. But Covid disruption has definitely increased the number of holes.
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Old 25th May 2022, 04:27
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Time Traveller; I want to send you a private message but youíve got the option turned off. Can you change that so I can send you a PM? Thanks

The data that would show gender differences in incident rate/report etc is there but is not accessible in the main. Which is interesting because I would hypothesise that if the data indicated female pilots had fewer incidents or reported more safety events thus demonstrating greater honesty/safety consciousness then any HR department/airline would be singing it from the rooftops so burnish their credentials. The fact is that none do and the female pilots pushing for greater gender balance donít push for it either.
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Old 25th May 2022, 06:27
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BoeingDriver99 View Post
The data that would show gender differences in incident rate/report etc is there but is not accessible in the main. Which is interesting because I would hypothesise that if the data indicated female pilots had fewer incidents or reported more safety events thus demonstrating greater honesty/safety consciousness then any HR department/airline would be singing it from the rooftops so burnish their credentials. The fact is that none do and the female pilots pushing for greater gender balance donít push for it either.
I suspect the reason is that women are too sensible to wave around a statistic like that which, even if true, would be a hostage to fortune.
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Old 25th May 2022, 12:33
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Well no because if the data was properly analysed using inferential statistics then one off events would not make any difference. Trends over time might make a difference eventually but for example; the data up to present day could result in interesting results - for example; no difference, small difference, large difference. They would be interesting results in their own way.
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Old 25th May 2022, 12:35
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Also I reckon women are just like men; some are too sensible, some aren’t and a whole bunch occupy them middle ground. So wouldn’t that mean a few less sensible folk (male or female) would be making that case by now if the data supported it?

Last edited by Pilot DAR; 25th May 2022 at 13:05. Reason: typo
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Old 25th May 2022, 13:45
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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It's interesting that when we discuss other accidents; involving only male pilots, I don't think we ever see, "well a female pilot in that situation would have been more cautious", or "a female pilot would have been able to multitask better" or whatever it may be.

In other words we only seem to see a gender debate when a woman pilot is involved?
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Old 25th May 2022, 14:25
  #56 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BoeingDriver99 View Post
Well no because if the data was properly analysed using inferential statistics then one off events would not make any difference. Trends over time might make a difference eventually but for example; the data up to present day could result in interesting results - for example; no difference, small difference, large difference. They would be interesting results in their own way.
The unfortunate truth is that trends usually don't give actionable intel towards stopping the next bingle. They look like they should mean something, but most times the next loss or embarrassment comes from outside of the focus at that time. In recent events, the only glaring example that really stands against that is the USS Connecticut's allision with the south china sea. The squadron command had highlighted deficiencies that seemed to be defied by the crew command, and either following being overridden by higher command or a change of heart, the event mirrored the concerns of the squadron command.

No trend picked up the 2 x B777 events in DXB, the take-off one or the GA one, they are system resonant events that come from what otherwise looks like a normal day at the office. The Exeter landing would not necessarily have been proceeded by actionable QAR alerting of stable approach criteria unless the screening looked at the full path of interest, rather than 2 snapshots. Even with screening triggering the unstable approach as an event, unless attributed to a common pilot, their problem doesn't get highlighted, it becomes a blip in the overall scheme of events. There are ways to get a meaningful understanding of the risks that the operation has, but it means a change of the manner by which we do business, and it is incompatible with pathological management teams, which are overrepresented in aviation.
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Old 25th May 2022, 15:40
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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I have observed a code of silence on these fora for some time now, not wishing to be drawn into any debates.

However, I feel the need to speak up this time and ask the mods to clean up this disgusting thread or close it. You can not seriously be suggesting that we are now blaming "the woke" and "female pilots" for landing incidents. What is wrong with you? Step out into the real world for a minute. And most of all, take a good look in the mirror.

Landing incidents are either the result of sloppy flying, fixation or lack of confidence. If, as you say, women are overrepresented in these type of occurrences, I'm willing to bet it's due to lack of confidence. I can very well see why someone would lose faith in their own abilities if they flew with condescending, patronizing assholes like yourselves.

Women are not extraterrestrials. Just like any living being, if you treat them right, support them and show them you trust them, you will see their ability and confidence come out. If you employ the attitude shown in some of these posts, you will make whoever is sitting next to you uncomfortable, make them retreat inside themselves and prime them to make mistakes. Were you never taught this aspect of CRM or did you never have the common sense to learn it?

I would rather fly with amoeba than with some of you on here.
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Old 25th May 2022, 19:55
  #58 (permalink)  

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Knowing the history of these unfortunate pilot(s) can be revealingÖ..the AAIB report of the A320 landing accident at KOS in July 2007 provided training details of the FO who was PF.
Reading it of course gave a remarkable feeling of hindsight.
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Old 25th May 2022, 22:07
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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On the topic of discrimination, I am generally supportive of some of the views expressed by Stuka Child, although I find the language and presentation of the post no better than that of those he/she condemns. More generally, the topic of discrimination, whether it seeks to deliver positive outcomes or not, should be open to discussion, particularly if it might possibly have some relevance - more on this in a moment. To prevent or delete that discussion is akin to pulling down statues and tossing them in the harbour.

I truly doubt whether female pilots are better or worse than male pilots - all other things being equal. And to know if all other things are equal, it is necessary to record and analyse data where there may be relevance. To me, those who seek to prevent such analysis and subsequent discussion are likely to be afraid of what the results might show.

And one final point on analysing data - and this relates mainly to fdrís comments - when looking at accident, and to an extent, incident data (particularly when looking at a fairly narrow subset of that data), the sample size is very small. There is no real value in looking for trends because the data is already marginal and, quite possibly skewed - whether intentionally or otherwise - by the sample selection. The most useful approach is to search for common factors in the events and then to investigate whether these are coincidental or a hint of a trend. Of course, that investigation will be of little value if it is done with preconceptions of what the outcome will or should be.
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Old 26th May 2022, 00:02
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stuka Child View Post

I would rather fly with amoeba than with some of you on here.
I bet you would rather fly with this guy.

https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/...1-519a3a7bd6ec

Unfortunately, people( I won't use the term amoeba) like you are willing to force us to.

Oh, and his family is suing the airline.
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