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A350 Fuselage coating cracks

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A350 Fuselage coating cracks

Old 19th Dec 2021, 13:34
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Mr Al Baker has been a difficult, some might just say demanding customer for as long as I can remember. He does it because it seems to work for him. In some ways he reminds me of O'Leary, outspoken but not always wrong. He is engaged in high stakes poker over an issue where he obviously feels aggrieved. Judging by the photos there is clearly a technical issue with the paint bonding. Over the lifetime of the aircraft it has the potential to be a very expensive issue. Airbus are almost certainly right that the wings are not going to fall off and that they think that they have a solution. The question is who pays, particularly for the consequences of Qatar's preemptive and highly expensive grounding. So far the manufacturers have tended to blink first. In the brave new world post covid I am not so sure. The only certain winners are the lawyers.
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Old 19th Dec 2021, 15:37
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Originally Posted by lederhosen
Mr Al Baker has been a difficult, some might just say demanding customer for as long as I can remember. He does it because it seems to work for him. In some ways he reminds me of O'Leary, outspoken but not always wrong. He is engaged in high stakes poker over an issue where he obviously feels aggrieved. Judging by the photos there is clearly a technical issue with the paint bonding. Over the lifetime of the aircraft it has the potential to be a very expensive issue. Airbus are almost certainly right that the wings are not going to fall off and that they think that they have a solution. The question is who pays, particularly for the consequences of Qatar's preemptive and highly expensive grounding. So far the manufacturers have tended to blink first. In the brave new world post covid I am not so sure. The only certain winners are the lawyers.
Mentioning AAB in the same breath as MOL is a serious insult to MOL. The latter has built a highly successful and profitable airline almost from scratch in a highly competitive environment, with no state support, facing up against some extremely powerful incumbents. The former writes checks.

Last edited by Lord Bracken; 19th Dec 2021 at 20:59.
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Old 19th Dec 2021, 15:42
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Originally Posted by Lord Bracken
Mentioning AAB in the same breath as MOL is a serious insult to MOL. The former has built a highly successful and profitable airline almost from scratch in a highly competitive environment, with no state support, facing up against some extremely powerful incumbents. The latter writes checks.
You might want to check the dictionary definitions of "former" and "latter".
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Old 19th Dec 2021, 18:22
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Despite the juxtaposition of former and latter Lord Bracken I get your drift. However both men have been in charge of their respective successful airlines for around a quarter of a century. Both polarize opinion particularly amongst their work forces and both enjoy a provocative sound bite. If you were asked which of them was most likely to have said in July 2017, in a speech at a dinner in Ireland, that US airlines were "crap" and their passengers were "always being served by grandmothers“ you would probably agree it could have been either. Friends at Airbus tell me dealing with Qatar has always been très compliqué, with endless delays handing over new jets arguing for example about toilet seats. I think Al-Baker believes this difficult client behavior gets results. It will be interesting to see if that continues to be the case.
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Old 19th Dec 2021, 18:50
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Originally Posted by lederhosen
Despite the juxtaposition of former and latter Lord Bracken I get your drift. However both men have been in charge of their respective successful airlines for around a quarter of a century. Both polarize opinion particularly amongst their work forces and both enjoy a provocative sound bite. If you were asked which of them was most likely to have said in July 2017, in a speech at a dinner in Ireland, that US airlines were "crap" and their passengers were "always being served by grandmothers“ you would probably agree it could have been either. Friends at Airbus tell me dealing with Qatar has always been très compliqué, with endless delays handing over new jets arguing for example about toilet seats. I think Al-Baker believes this difficult client behavior gets results. It will be interesting to see if that continues to be the case.
"Très compliqué" is an understatement ... and if it was only about toilet seats
Dealing with QTR is
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Old 19th Dec 2021, 20:58
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
You might want to check the dictionary definitions of "former" and "latter".
Whoops. Apologies for the brainfart.
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Old 20th Dec 2021, 19:51
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Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3
What does Airbus mean by the phrase, "independent legal assessment"?
Well, this next step taken by Qatar is a much more clearer statement: Qatar Airways issues legal proceedings against Airbus in the Technology and Construction division of the High Court in London
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Old 20th Dec 2021, 20:11
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Talking

Originally Posted by DIBO
I hope that they won't be wanting any more Airbus aircraft in the future

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Old 23rd Dec 2021, 19:22
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Meanwhile Boeing aren't exempt from paint problems on the 787

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/ind...79-dreamliners
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Old 24th Dec 2021, 05:30
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Presumably the same problem that was identified in a SAFO in early 2020, traced to UV damage between the primer and resin layers on the upper wing.
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Old 24th Dec 2021, 09:01
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Originally Posted by Chris2303
Meanwhile Boeing aren't exempt from paint problems on the 787

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/ind...79-dreamliners
Not just Air NZ either. I've seen sheets of surface paint get blasted off by de icing sprayers on quite a few 787s.
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Old 21st Jan 2022, 21:55
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Qatar Airways released a video of the paint damage (shows some A350 registrations). This seems to be in response (or at least occurred soon after) to Airbus cancelling their order for A321's.

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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 10:01
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Contract lost;

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/...s-amid-dispute

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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 15:43
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Have other A-350 operators experienced these same issues?
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 19:17
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Lets go back to the original post #1 on this thread.

Did IAC not use the correct procedure for this airframe?
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 23:09
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I think the video shows four airframes affected and that doesn't include A7-ALL where it allegedly was first discovered.
It was reported elsewhere that some other airlines' A350's were affected but I haven't seen other groundings. I haven't seen other A350 coating legal proceedings either!
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 08:02
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It looks like two issues:
1. Bad paint chipping and peeling off, however it looks like happening only on certain sections of the same fuselage? Might be the new "green" water based paint interacting with the primer or similar and depending on the fabrication site?
2. The upper protection skin layer cracking and splintering opening the lower layers like the copper mesh to the elements.
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Old 26th Jan 2022, 21:07
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Mr William Walsh, President of IATA has now been quoted as saying (about the Court action between Qatar Airways and Airbus over the A350 surface coating issue)...
"I would hate to think that one of the suppliers is taking advantage of their current market strength to exploit their position, and that is something we are watching very closely," Walsh told reporters when asked about the issue during a press conference.

But if Qatar Airways refuses to take delivery of any more A350's over "paint coating" issues and is asking the Court to stop Airbus delivering any more A350's and after Qatar Airways said that "with Airbus the damage is very severe, I don’t know that we will be able to work with them again" then isn't Airbus entitled to now conclude that Qatar Airways no longer wishes to do business with them? Is Airbus really obligated to do business with a customer which refuses to take delivery of airplanes and is suing it?
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Old 26th Jan 2022, 21:17
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Is the President of the airlines' trade association going to take the side of one of its member airlines, or of a manufacturer? Tricky decision ...
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 07:29
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Is the President of the airlines' trade association going to take the side of one of its member airlines, or of a manufacturer? Tricky decision ...
No doubt who is paying his salary. What probably does limit his empathy is that it is a carrier from the Middle East and he was the former president of BA...

I do not think he is good friends with Al Baker.

Last edited by procede; 27th Jan 2022 at 08:09.
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