Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Dancing on Ice - Yakutia

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Dancing on Ice - Yakutia

Old 13th Oct 2020, 07:56
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Cayley's County - Yorkshire
Posts: 129
Dancing on Ice - Yakutia

Two Yakutia Superjets overran same icy runway within two hourshttps://www.flightglobal.com/safety/...140565.article

whoops
CAEBr is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2020, 08:21
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 12,178
Investigation report (in Russian only): RRJ-95B RA-89011 10.10.2018
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2020, 12:33
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Central UK
Posts: 451
One can only marvel at the airmanship prevalent in a company when one crew fails to report such a serious lack of braking and loss of control, and another chooses to land with a tailwind on a runway as slippery as that.
meleagertoo is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2020, 13:58
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: A little South of North
Posts: 182
Two hours elapsed between the two incidents. Were the crew of the second aircraft informed about the earlier incident? The given wind and reported braking action were both within company limits. So perhaps an unfair conclusion.
Pistonprop is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2020, 16:50
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,364
meleagertoo

I don't understand, crew fails to report to who?

Surely the timely communication needs to involve the tower and they also have their own eyes to see a plane off a runway
lomapaseo is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2020, 16:53
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: somewhere beyond the forest
Posts: 27
(12.00 Local Time) 23590150 (RW23 left, wet, slightly covered with snow 0.50 SFT))

1) MET.Report at 15.20 local time (3 hours before landing):

- RW is dry, ice in patches friction coefficient 0.45 SFT.

2) One hour and a half after an accident friction coefficient 0.28 SFT and half an hour later 0.27 SFT.

3) Conclusion (?): Maintenance gave false information about the braking action.

Last edited by usedtobeATC; 13th Oct 2020 at 17:12.
usedtobeATC is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2020, 11:53
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Central UK
Posts: 451
lomapaseo

It's perfectly clear in the article...
"Despite the overrun the crew chose not to report the incident, and started to taxi back along the runway."
AS we all lnow the tower often doesn't see incidents, and can't see loss of braking and steering control except in the mpst extreme cases.
They didn't tell the tower so the tower was unable to tell subsequent landing aircraft that the runway was in fact seriously contaminated with much less mu than reported.

Company limits notwithstanding I'd have thought that landing with a tailwind component on a runway as close to contaminated as that is pretty ill advised to say the least.
is there a reason they didn't ask for a runway change?
meleagertoo is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2020, 12:48
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: somewhere beyond the forest
Posts: 27
The plane lands and the captain reports to Tower that the braking action is poor. The co-pilot tells the captain that the braking action is good, but the captain replies: let them suffer a little (real story).
usedtobeATC is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2020, 14:07
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: A little South of North
Posts: 182
meleagertoo, what is also perfectly clear is that they (the first aircraft) eventually asked for a tow. So I would imagine that they must have had a chat with ATC as to why, otherwise the article would not have been able to mention the first incident. Then, I repeat, two hours elapsed between the two arrivals and, I repeat again, were the crew informed of the earlier incident? As for choice of runway, could the same not have happened in the other direction? A slippery runway will be slippery in both directions won't it? As for the wind, it was all of four knots. Last, but not least, there might be a valid reason to favour a particular runway at that airport if within company limits.
Pistonprop is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2020, 14:51
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England
Posts: 889
Runway condition reporting - new Global Reporting Format (GRP), required by the end of year.
Slides 23 - https://www.icao.int/EURNAT/Other%20...FR%20PPT01.pdf

Human weaknesses remain; contaminant measurement, communication, and use by aircrew. So add more than the minimum distance margin.
PEI_3721 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2020, 14:52
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: NV USA
Posts: 254
usedtobeATC

Runway friction reports have been proven to have almost zero correlation to aircraft stopping effectiveness. They are to be used only as an additional resource to help the crew make a runway evaluation.
cappt is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2020, 17:50
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Spain and United Kingdom
Posts: 1,779
SFT equipment is almost useless, except for a general idea of how a 4WD vehicle would handle on a test track. The best assessment of Braking Action I ever had was from RTM ATC one icy morning in the ‘80’s. I ‘phoned in advance to ask about the 24 runway state before departure in my BAe146 from NWI, the answer was “Don’t even try it, Sir. We can’t even skate on it, without falling over”.
Nightstop is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2020, 08:09
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Darkness mostly
Age: 49
Posts: 31
cappt

Indeed, the transmitted figures whether it be by ATIS or ATC can be hours old. More recent can and will be totally different.
Some wind can nicely polish ice patches with resulting braking action figures at zero within a short period of time.

Tailwind and contaminated runways are a big no no in my opinion. There should be a thorough evaluation of the weather situation together with braking action and aircraft performance.

Personally I would like to see the aircraft being able to perform within the limits one category below the reported braking action. The PIC is responsible for the ship after all. This is emphasized by ATC reporting estimated figures since a few years.

There is some excellent guidance material from the Nordic countries.
marsipulami is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2020, 13:36
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Central UK
Posts: 451
Pistonprop

You seem to base a lot on speculation where I was solely referring to the reports we have.
"all of four knots". I expect that's what they said too - famous last words. Do you land jets on slippery runways by any chance? It certainly doesn't sound like it.
meleagertoo is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2020, 19:29
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: A little South of North
Posts: 182
meleagertoo

What reports are those? I re-read your above posts and nowhere do you suggest that your comments emanate from any official reports. In fact, your comments condemning the crew are as speculative as you accuse me of being. I made mine, as mentioned, based on what I read in the article quoted by the OP and nothing more. I asked two pertinent questions: Were the crew of the 2nd aircraft informed about the earlier incident? Was there a specific reason behind the choice of runway? My thoughts are simply that considering the environment and climate they regularly operate in, I imagine those guys are not inexperienced at landing in those conditions.
Pistonprop is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2020, 01:23
  #16 (permalink)  
Person Of Interest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Floral City, Florida, USA
Age: 65
Posts: 837
Professional

Whatever happened to PILOTS? Computer controlled aircraft and PFT Interns...🤬
DownIn3Green is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.