Last A380 Leaves Assembly Hall
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I can see a resurge in the A380 and B747. After covid there will be a surge in travel and the piddly wee 787’s won’t be able to hack it. The 787’s premier offering is not the best. Premier PAX prefer the spaciousness of the jumbo’s premier cabin. Watch this space, airlines will want to move as many pax as they can in one go once the flying starts again!
Count of Monte Bisto
"I feel really bad for the countless people who invested years of work into this amazing project"
Most of them will have long since moved on to bigger and better things.
Well better things, anyway ...
"I feel really bad for the countless people who invested years of work into this amazing project"
Most of them will have long since moved on to bigger and better things.
Well better things, anyway ...
Thread Starter
As mentioned upthread they certainly moved on locally some time ago... though now they are dealing with the impact of Covid on the orders for the, as you put it, "better things".
With its underworked fleet spare parts and engines must be available for cheap. Which should help with operating costs. To see all this inventory sitting idle is incredible. Billions over billions.
Put in all those seats permitted and bring down the cost per seat. Where is the next people express?
Put in all those seats permitted and bring down the cost per seat. Where is the next people express?
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I still feel there is a pax class gap between economy and business that isn't well catered for and perhaps could be better fulfilled by the A380. Not all of us are wealthy enough to fly first class or have a company to pay for our business class seats, however many people are capable of paying just a little bit more for some extra creature comforts on a long haul flight, usually up to 50% more. So yes, as a budget airliner the A380 is well and truly dead but could it still have some life in catering for those that can afford a little extra?
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This starts getting pathetic. You are actually in a search for customers ready to pay the surplus a daringly designed product needs to become profitable.
Normally it works the other way around, namely manufacturers try to design a product for what customers are ready to buy.
It compares to the unprofitable volume vs. weight ratio of the 380 in terms of cargo capacity. You might try the same here, but i reckon that no one would pay the necessary price to ship styrofoam profitably .....
I say it again: You can insulate any airliner to a A380 standard, you can equip any big airliner with the space in premium as the 380 (ever flown the new First on EKs T7? It has similar space than its 380).
But then these aircraft would become the same incredible technical achievement (
) and similarly uneconomical as the whale.
You very simply can't beat physics.
Emirates is momentarily stuck with its huge fleet of 380s. Therefore it is the only airline that can and will redeploy a sizeable fleet. That is most welcome for our fellow pilots. The loss is the Sheiks and i couldn't care less.
But any small fleet revival or conversion of the 380 will not materialise because this cannot be profitable.
Normally it works the other way around, namely manufacturers try to design a product for what customers are ready to buy.
It compares to the unprofitable volume vs. weight ratio of the 380 in terms of cargo capacity. You might try the same here, but i reckon that no one would pay the necessary price to ship styrofoam profitably .....
I say it again: You can insulate any airliner to a A380 standard, you can equip any big airliner with the space in premium as the 380 (ever flown the new First on EKs T7? It has similar space than its 380).
But then these aircraft would become the same incredible technical achievement (
) and similarly uneconomical as the whale.You very simply can't beat physics.
Emirates is momentarily stuck with its huge fleet of 380s. Therefore it is the only airline that can and will redeploy a sizeable fleet. That is most welcome for our fellow pilots. The loss is the Sheiks and i couldn't care less.
But any small fleet revival or conversion of the 380 will not materialise because this cannot be profitable.
Thread Starter
glofish
I agree with a lot of your thoughts but I know of one airline with a small'ish fleet of 380s whose management seem intent (or so they say) on reviving at least some of the hulls once the upturn arrives ......
It'l be interesting to see what happens in reality.
I agree with a lot of your thoughts but I know of one airline with a small'ish fleet of 380s whose management seem intent (or so they say) on reviving at least some of the hulls once the upturn arrives ......
It'l be interesting to see what happens in reality.
glofish
But those little 777s become MTOW limited on flights over 10hrs, leaving all that cargo and pax behind. The 380 carries max ZFW to 15hrs. This is why EK like the aeroplane. STC has stated many times he needed the 777 to carry 40t to LAX to make money. In summer, with bump and Packs off it carries far less than that with 80 seats needed to be kept empty. This was one of the main business cases for the 77X. But now it's high purchase cost is scaring airlines and new orders are non existent and past orders are being cancelled.
Big and expensive aeroplanes have had their day. Small and plastic aeroplanes seem to be the future. Sad for travelers.
But those little 777s become MTOW limited on flights over 10hrs, leaving all that cargo and pax behind. The 380 carries max ZFW to 15hrs. This is why EK like the aeroplane. STC has stated many times he needed the 777 to carry 40t to LAX to make money. In summer, with bump and Packs off it carries far less than that with 80 seats needed to be kept empty. This was one of the main business cases for the 77X. But now it's high purchase cost is scaring airlines and new orders are non existent and past orders are being cancelled.
Big and expensive aeroplanes have had their day. Small and plastic aeroplanes seem to be the future. Sad for travelers.
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Hi don
You keep on bringing up this example ….. True, the T7 was limited at ULR, albeit not in the numbers you like to cite. It was not designed for that, the 380 was. The T7 was squeezed into that role by the horrible performance of the 345.
For your other arguments, STC has also stated, that EK was “stuck" with the 380 for the near future, whatever that means ….. Furthermore it makes absolute sense to wanting a new, more modern aircraft tor these ULRs, because the cost needs to be brought to a sub 380 level to make money.
On the other hand it is always a double edged sword to compare older aircraft to newly developed models. To do that with the 380 vs. the T7 turned out to be a bit on the wrong edge, as the T7 is 12 years senior to the 380! Even the fuel guzzlers 346/345 came on line 7/9 years later! The performance of newly developed aircraft should be much better.
STC is right to bitch about the high price of the T7X, being burned by the price of the 380, outrageous subsidies disregarded.
If you keep the performance of all these aircraft at a honest level, it is not surprising that most T7s are busy flying and most 380 kept on ground.
The latter is a nice shower to operate in boom times and a porous bathtub in the slightest economic downturn.
Unfortunately i do consent with your appreciation of small and plastic.
You keep on bringing up this example ….. True, the T7 was limited at ULR, albeit not in the numbers you like to cite. It was not designed for that, the 380 was. The T7 was squeezed into that role by the horrible performance of the 345.
For your other arguments, STC has also stated, that EK was “stuck" with the 380 for the near future, whatever that means ….. Furthermore it makes absolute sense to wanting a new, more modern aircraft tor these ULRs, because the cost needs to be brought to a sub 380 level to make money.
On the other hand it is always a double edged sword to compare older aircraft to newly developed models. To do that with the 380 vs. the T7 turned out to be a bit on the wrong edge, as the T7 is 12 years senior to the 380! Even the fuel guzzlers 346/345 came on line 7/9 years later! The performance of newly developed aircraft should be much better.
STC is right to bitch about the high price of the T7X, being burned by the price of the 380, outrageous subsidies disregarded.
If you keep the performance of all these aircraft at a honest level, it is not surprising that most T7s are busy flying and most 380 kept on ground.
The latter is a nice shower to operate in boom times and a porous bathtub in the slightest economic downturn.
Unfortunately i do consent with your appreciation of small and plastic.
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Originally Posted by glofish
horrible performance of the 345.
Another issue with the A380 that is largely ignored is that only a relative handful of airports are really prepared to handle it - now that it's OOP that's not going to improve.
For example, Seattle has become a major hub for operations from North America to Asia (it's significantly closer than either San Fransisco or LAX). However, while it's an approved alternate for A380 operations - it's not equipped for regular service. If I want to fly an A380 somewhere, I need to connect somewhere - not particularly desirable if I can take a non-stop from Seattle. I did that once because I wanted to fly on an A380 - flying two hours to LAX, sitting around for another few hours, then flying an A380 to Korea (which passed within 100 miles of Seattle about two hours after takeoff). Yes, the A380 was a very pleasant passenger experience (business class on Korean), but I could have taken a 777 non-stop from Seattle and saved over six hours of travel time. Not many people will intentionally add several hours to their travel time just to fly on an A380...
For example, Seattle has become a major hub for operations from North America to Asia (it's significantly closer than either San Fransisco or LAX). However, while it's an approved alternate for A380 operations - it's not equipped for regular service. If I want to fly an A380 somewhere, I need to connect somewhere - not particularly desirable if I can take a non-stop from Seattle. I did that once because I wanted to fly on an A380 - flying two hours to LAX, sitting around for another few hours, then flying an A380 to Korea (which passed within 100 miles of Seattle about two hours after takeoff). Yes, the A380 was a very pleasant passenger experience (business class on Korean), but I could have taken a 777 non-stop from Seattle and saved over six hours of travel time. Not many people will intentionally add several hours to their travel time just to fly on an A380...
I pays to keep in mind ULH runs to many places outside USA and USA never embraced the A380, with options to call home.
I like many live in a country that is very limited for direct international flights, so a few or more hours stop over some place is normal. I have never used Sydney for this option it has mostly been Singapore or Johannesburg (one for comfort one convenience or cost) depending on my final destination the 380 flights are looked at favorably as does the transit airport. I actually enjoy planning my long haul over a couple of days a 4-6 hour room in a airport hotel, a bit of a stroll through the terminals and gardens and a few drinks makes it so much more enjoyable.
I like many live in a country that is very limited for direct international flights, so a few or more hours stop over some place is normal. I have never used Sydney for this option it has mostly been Singapore or Johannesburg (one for comfort one convenience or cost) depending on my final destination the 380 flights are looked at favorably as does the transit airport. I actually enjoy planning my long haul over a couple of days a 4-6 hour room in a airport hotel, a bit of a stroll through the terminals and gardens and a few drinks makes it so much more enjoyable.
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Where does the A330 Neo fit into this? IIRC one of the original sales points was that it wasn't quite as efficient as the 787, but much much cheaper to buy. It would also seem not to have as many issues as that airframe.
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Also keep in mind that the A380 is a smidgeon faster in cruise than the B777 which all adds up on ULH.
Some of us living at the arse end of the world would really hate to see the bird go.
Some of us living at the arse end of the world would really hate to see the bird go.
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On the Eurocontrol "Aviation StraightTalk" interview series today, BA CEO Sean Doyle was asked about plans for the airline's A380s. Mr. Doyle noted several factors supporting his response that the aircraft will continue to be a part of the airline's fleet and operations, as conditions improve and traffic trends back toward 2019 levels (even if only gradually).
These factors were, the retirement of the airline's 747s; the usefulness of the A380 eastbound for major Asian destinations (e.g. Singapore, Hong Kong); similarly usefulness westbound for some North American destinations (Miami, Boston); and suitability for the density of operations at BA's LHR hub.
Noted here just as news of sorts (not as forecast of actual usage of A380s by BA or any other airline).
These factors were, the retirement of the airline's 747s; the usefulness of the A380 eastbound for major Asian destinations (e.g. Singapore, Hong Kong); similarly usefulness westbound for some North American destinations (Miami, Boston); and suitability for the density of operations at BA's LHR hub.
Noted here just as news of sorts (not as forecast of actual usage of A380s by BA or any other airline).
tdracer
SEA is an ALTN for our 380s. As are lots of other airports on the North American continent. To become a destination any of them would just need a regular pax number that supports the operation. It operated, several times a day to regional ports like MAN, BHX, MRU for example.
We would, on a regular basis during the season, carry cherries from up your way from both our SFO and LAX 380 ports, that the little Boeing that operated into SEA was unable to carry.
SEA is an ALTN for our 380s. As are lots of other airports on the North American continent. To become a destination any of them would just need a regular pax number that supports the operation. It operated, several times a day to regional ports like MAN, BHX, MRU for example.
We would, on a regular basis during the season, carry cherries from up your way from both our SFO and LAX 380 ports, that the little Boeing that operated into SEA was unable to carry.
glofish
I think we are lucky to be towards the end of the career rather the start glowie. But it is good to see a few more 380s being returned to DXB. Parked next to a China southern one the other day in CDG, so a bit of movement over east as well it seems.
I think we are lucky to be towards the end of the career rather the start glowie. But it is good to see a few more 380s being returned to DXB. Parked next to a China southern one the other day in CDG, so a bit of movement over east as well it seems.
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One buddy has received the call, two others, really good and professional guys still waiting. Keeping my fingers crossed and, that might amuse you, hoping that some more 380s get airborne again ....
Nah knew you would look out for fellow pilots. The metal that gets them back on the payroll doesn't matter.
Fingers crossed it continues.
Fingers crossed it continues.