ATR72 - Sea collision
Thread Starter
ATR72 - Sea collision
Royal Air Maroc Express ATR72 managed to climb away after descending onto the Mediterranean during a botched approach. The GPWS had been turned off after working correctly and giving what were viewed by the crew as nuisance warnings.
Shades of PIA at Karachi ?
https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/...139264.article
Shades of PIA at Karachi ?
https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/...139264.article
Last edited by CAEBr; 14th Jul 2020 at 08:14. Reason: lost a W
From the article, "After the aircraft hit the water, the crew executed a belated go-around, telling the tower controllers that they were aborting the approach because of a bird-strike.". Bet the poor old Gull (or whatever it was) thought it was quite safe bobbing around on the oggin, even if it was under the FAP! 
To be serious tho, for what was a miracle escape by the sounds of it, just how many of these sort of approaches are flown every day around the world (in pre-Covid days especially)? Me thinks these are probably far, far, far more common than we think given that both the down-route and up-route approaches to this location were flown in this manner even though they were both different procedures.
To completely re-paraphrase those excellent opening remarks by the Judge in the BBC sitcom "Porridge", is the following applicable? "...... You are an habitual criminal, who accepts flying dodgy approaches as an occupational norm, and presumably expects it will always work out OK every time in the same casual manner.".
And to how many more people does this apply across the world?
Makes you wonder........
To be serious tho, for what was a miracle escape by the sounds of it, just how many of these sort of approaches are flown every day around the world (in pre-Covid days especially)? Me thinks these are probably far, far, far more common than we think given that both the down-route and up-route approaches to this location were flown in this manner even though they were both different procedures.
To completely re-paraphrase those excellent opening remarks by the Judge in the BBC sitcom "Porridge", is the following applicable? "...... You are an habitual criminal, who accepts flying dodgy approaches as an occupational norm, and presumably expects it will always work out OK every time in the same casual manner.".
And to how many more people does this apply across the world?
Makes you wonder........
It wouldn't matter where they photo-shopped their licences. Until they find a vaccine for stupidity these events will continue..
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mortifying.
Two impacts into the sea, while 3° nose down. Quite extraordinary there wasn't a complete structural failure.
Their first leg into Al Hoceima that day also resulted in descending to 60ft MSL without the runway in sight.
Two impacts into the sea, while 3° nose down. Quite extraordinary there wasn't a complete structural failure.
Their first leg into Al Hoceima that day also resulted in descending to 60ft MSL without the runway in sight.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having talked to someone who flew there for several years, I do not see anything unusual in their flying style. Going below minimas is just another day at the office in this outfit.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The No Transgression Zone
Posts: 2,485
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the serious side...I agree, wholeheartedly pulling the GPWS while it's talking to you is one of the most reckless and careless things I have ever heard of!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: England
Age: 65
Posts: 303
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not shades of PIA320, it's more like Avianca 011, infamous "Shut up gringo" when the GPWS advised pull up.
Sacking them both isn't going to change the culture, CRM needs improving, both pilots putting in opposing inputs!
Very lucky to survive, however, IMO first officer does deserve some credit, if reporting is accurate, he clearly wasn't happy with the situation and without his intervention this would be a search and recovery thread.
Sacking them both isn't going to change the culture, CRM needs improving, both pilots putting in opposing inputs!
Very lucky to survive, however, IMO first officer does deserve some credit, if reporting is accurate, he clearly wasn't happy with the situation and without his intervention this would be a search and recovery thread.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The No Transgression Zone
Posts: 2,485
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was being a hot head but the captain should have been sacked though that's way beyond any foolishness in a plane...I do agree a change in CRM or company culture seems necessary but the captain has to go!
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The No Transgression Zone
Posts: 2,485
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's nearly impossible in the information age... you can't hide it from the public. I wouldn't fly on that airline either not just the traveling public and I believe that my aeronautical knowledge is just a bit higher than most punters
This post was addressing a member's statement, which is now deleted... just in case my post seemed odd
This post was addressing a member's statement, which is now deleted... just in case my post seemed odd
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 18th Jul 2020 at 06:11.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: A little South of North
Posts: 275
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The first officer suggested, during this briefing, that the ground-proximity warning system should be turned off to avoid its being triggered again, and the captain agreed.
Beats me why the FO deserves any credit!
Beats me why the FO deserves any credit!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 1,246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alaska Airlines suffered a Fish Strike back in 1987. Maybe they could supply the relevant form.
https://bl og.alaskaair.com/alaska-airlines/flying-fish/
https://bl og.alaskaair.com/alaska-airlines/flying-fish/
There are no nuisance warnings with EGPWS / TAWS
Re '… viewed by the crew as nuisance warnings.'
There are no nuisance warnings with EGPWS / TAWS, only valid ones until you can prove otherwise at a safe height.
All terrain warnings must trigger an instant climb to above the safe altitude and then re-evaluate the situation.
Humans err more often than EGPWS.
Nuisance - false warnings can be investigated and rectified; engineering or procedure.
'Nuisance' - true warnings are usually buried.
https://www.flightglobal.com/complac...126596.article
There are no nuisance warnings with EGPWS / TAWS, only valid ones until you can prove otherwise at a safe height.
All terrain warnings must trigger an instant climb to above the safe altitude and then re-evaluate the situation.
Humans err more often than EGPWS.
Nuisance - false warnings can be investigated and rectified; engineering or procedure.
'Nuisance' - true warnings are usually buried.
https://www.flightglobal.com/complac...126596.article
de minimus non curat lex
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This event took place in July 2018 and further details can be found on AVHerald.com
Just what action the Regulator took is not known.
Perhaps “Culture” had a part to play....?
It makes a cracking read, verging on total disbelief when you first read it.
I had to read it again to get the full measure of just what happened.
CRM non existence.
The Captain conduct needs to be examined by the Trick Cyclists.
It brings into question whether he was mentally fit to fly.
Had this occurred in the UK, a prosecution would undoubtedly have occurred, and the Captain’s licence revoked.
A similar reckless conduct in the case R v. Robert Murgatroyd.
42 months at HMP [AAIB: G-BAKH]
A good read for all Junior Birdmen, CRM instructors & those who think ‘Culture’ is not a factor in aircraft accidents.
Just what action the Regulator took is not known.
Perhaps “Culture” had a part to play....?
It makes a cracking read, verging on total disbelief when you first read it.
I had to read it again to get the full measure of just what happened.
CRM non existence.
The Captain conduct needs to be examined by the Trick Cyclists.
It brings into question whether he was mentally fit to fly.
Had this occurred in the UK, a prosecution would undoubtedly have occurred, and the Captain’s licence revoked.
A similar reckless conduct in the case R v. Robert Murgatroyd.
42 months at HMP [AAIB: G-BAKH]
A good read for all Junior Birdmen, CRM instructors & those who think ‘Culture’ is not a factor in aircraft accidents.
Last edited by parkfell; 15th Jul 2020 at 07:00. Reason: Expanded final sentence
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southern Europe
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The fact that the ATR is a High Wing design most likely saved the day.
Had it been a Low Wing aircraft, very likely there would be no going around from this contact with the water.
Had it been a Low Wing aircraft, very likely there would be no going around from this contact with the water.
