Ryanair GPWS @ Bergerac
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Ryanair GPWS @ Bergerac
I haven’t seen this one mentioned before, it seems the Swiss cheese nearly lined up.
https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/...139031.article
https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/...139031.article
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These types of approaches should have been banned a long time ago. They are not fit for purpose in the modern day and have a long history of tragic accidents associated with them.
Yes I can fly one. But the paying public sat in the back deserve better.
Yes I can fly one. But the paying public sat in the back deserve better.
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I did one on my IR test in 1989 in an Aztec. The next time I did one for real (needles don’t wander in a sim) was in the LHS of a Boeing 767 into HUY. Quite remarkable that we managed to safely land off it.
Originally Posted by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
These types of approaches should have been banned a long time ago. They are not fit for purpose in the modern day and have a long history of tragic accidents associated with them.
Yes I can fly one. But the paying public sat in the back deserve better.
Yes I can fly one. But the paying public sat in the back deserve better.
Only half a speed-brake
Nothing to do with NDB navaid. Spatial disorientation, unable to use the FMS coding and/or get overwhelmed by it at the same time.
There's a step-down fix of 1460 ft over the NDB station, 4 miles out on the centre-line. The A/C descended through that altitude
- 20 degrees off the centerline track
- 10 miles away from the field
- on a heading that was almost perpendicular to the final track.
Missing a step-down fix on the final approach by 90 degrees of track error, .... can't blame the radio signal.
There's a step-down fix of 1460 ft over the NDB station, 4 miles out on the centre-line. The A/C descended through that altitude
- 20 degrees off the centerline track
- 10 miles away from the field
- on a heading that was almost perpendicular to the final track.
Missing a step-down fix on the final approach by 90 degrees of track error, .... can't blame the radio signal.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 28th Jun 2020 at 00:15.
Missing a step-down fix on the final approach by 90 degrees of track error
As I understand it they approached the NDB ( "BGC") from the NNE, overflew it SSW bound (at about 90 degrees off inbound course) and then performed a direct join, left turn to fly downwind on the procedure hold at 2500 feet .. However as I see it then went all wrong when, immediately at the end of the downwind hold leg, at the start of the base turn, the pilot flying commenced a further descent rather than flying level until being established inbound towards the NDB.
Plates etc are here:
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Bergerac on Jan 29th 2015, descended below minimum safe altitude on NDB approach
Last edited by wiggy; 27th Jun 2020 at 23:57.
Only half a speed-brake
Agreed. The point I was trying to make was they ended up ignoring the easily understandable vertical profile as well. That suggests the lateral guidance was not at fault, even if grossly misunderstood already. More likely the first victim, not the reason behind the disarray.
Donald Bateman was an angel who walked the Earth.
Donald Bateman was an angel who walked the Earth.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 28th Jun 2020 at 00:18.
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Crew lost SA and got it in a pickle. However, on receiving a GPWS hard warming they did what they were supposed to do and climbed back to 4000 feet (I would assume they performed the terrain escape manoeuvre but the flightglobal article doesn't use that expression).
If all crews who have found themselves in a similar situation over the years had done the same a lot of people would be alive who sadly now aren't.
If all crews who have found themselves in a similar situation over the years had done the same a lot of people would be alive who sadly now aren't.
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Originally Posted by Max Tow
Does the final report have any explanation of the apparent investigation timescale, which on the face of it seems unbelievably poor?
They've probably been on strike Since then 😏
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Hey give the BEA guys a break ! It is only an incident . They have had their hands full with major accidents in the last 5 years And they have only a limited number of staff . They are also asked for their expertise (and tools ) in almost all the last ones . Including now the Ukraine 737 in Iran for instance.
It is about priorities I guess
It is about priorities I guess
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Guys, sh1t happens, they got got out of it in one piece and most likely got chewed out and retrained appropriately (at least I hope so).
I am more concerned by people claiming that it is unsafe to fly a Raw Data NDB approach with 2 engines and the autopilot.
I am more concerned by people claiming that it is unsafe to fly a Raw Data NDB approach with 2 engines and the autopilot.
Interesting one. Many holes in the cheese but at least there was no confusion over what an EGPWS alert meant.
I find it fascinating that a crew can get spatially disoriented when there is an electronic map in front of them showing exactly where they are relative to the final approach track and giving distance to the runway. Mode confusion, dissimilar mental models, decreasing SA... It’s all there to learn from.
I find it fascinating that a crew can get spatially disoriented when there is an electronic map in front of them showing exactly where they are relative to the final approach track and giving distance to the runway. Mode confusion, dissimilar mental models, decreasing SA... It’s all there to learn from.
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Time was we did non precision approaches to places in the eastern med on a weekly basis, they needed you to be well briefed and on point mentally if the weather was anything but cavok. I would guess the vast majority of modern pilots do an old fashioned hdg/vs NPA rarely to never, even in the sim. Recipe for an ASR. Fair play, correct reaction to the GPWS is re-assuring.
Last edited by macdo; 28th Jun 2020 at 12:45.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
The old saying "there are two types of pilot; those who have screwed up, and those who are going to". Screwed up many times. These guys got it wrong (it happens) but took the correct action when needed. No passengers were scared, and the paint wasn't scratched. Result.
