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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 22nd May 2020, 21:52
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BrooksPA-28
There is some reason to question the validity of this video. The photos of the plane (showing the rat deployed) show the gear up. The video shows the gear down. The ATC transmission mentions a belly landing. This also implies a gear up configuration. Finally it appears to me that the shape of the buildings that the plane passes behind, are distorted by the plane's passage. This could be an artifact of the video compression. It would be interesting if someone could identify the building and surrounding area, then match that to the crash location.
What sort of warning is there if gear is lowered but fails to correctly lock? What's the procedure if gear fails to lock? Could crew have thought that a warning was a bad sensor, rather than an actual failure? I'm picturing a scenario where perhaps the crew is suspicious of the gear but think that it's down, but then when it doesn't hold they do a go-around, but the engines have already been damaged.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 22:03
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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At 750ft AGL you get a master warning "L/G GEAR NOT DOWN". That means you'll get a loud DING DING DING and red flashy lights. There is a large red downwards arrow next to the landing gear lever that lights up (if you're in the landing configuration minus the landing gear, eg flaps set for landing with the gear up). If you ignore that, eventually you get a "TOO LOW GEAR" GPWS callout (400ft maybe? Can't remember), when that shouts you get a GPWS light in front of you.

Edit: That's weird, I wasn't intending to reply to jugopropwash, thought it was BrooksPA28 asking about warnings for the gear not being down. Perhaps the post was deleted.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 22:16
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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They would not be the first to get so involved with the landing that they screwed the pooch. See Capt. Asoh's noble defense. If they had a double podstrike plus maybe a tailstrike, why didn't they say anything afterwards? Well, maybe it's not so bad and they won't get in trouble. Why cause problems for yourselves?
Thus why a just culture is hard to attain. Even when policies in place, you still get judged on insufficient st
​​​​evidence.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 22:18
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by eagle21
It is clear that the controller did not think that they would make the first approach just based on their energy 3500ft at 5NM. It will be interesting to find out what the rate of descent was in the last minute of the first approach.
That implies that the controller should have taken a particular interest in this approach. Was no-one in the tower watching as they descended with gear retracted, banged the engines on the runway, and then climbed away trailing smoke? Did it not occur to anyone to pipe up: "Er, PIA, we think you might have just smacked your aeroplane on the ground"?
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Old 22nd May 2020, 22:19
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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So you can retract the gear with weight on and movement, live on a runway during a TOGA before lift off to allow engine nacelles to scrape the ground? Im not sure I get that.
Or is the suggestion there was positive climb, gear up then a sink back down temporarily to scuff engines before gaining momentum
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Old 22nd May 2020, 22:22
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Or a large bounce, put the gear up instead of the flap in the bounce, the engines take too long to spool up and you get a second bounce (crash) before climbing away.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 22:23
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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My guess is the gear was not lowered on the 1st landing
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Old 22nd May 2020, 22:30
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Never underestimate the ability of the human mind to filter out certain sounds - especially during high stress/high workload situations (perhaps worrying about another, unrelated, issue).
Allegedly (according to one of my college profs) many years ago a biz jet did a wheels up landing at Boeing Field. The flight crew swore up and down that the landing config warning never sounded - until the investigators played them the CVR recording where the warning was clearly evident during final...
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Old 22nd May 2020, 22:49
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aerobus123
The Airblue crash in 2010 happened with a highly religious captain who was fasting, and diabetic. Regulators should definitely mandate regular meals for pilots before and during flights!
This is not true. https://reports.aviation-safety.net/...321_AP-BJB.pdf

Chapter 10, section 10.3 It was conclusively established that neither the Captain, nor the FO, were fasting during or 12 hours before the flight
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Old 22nd May 2020, 22:51
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by eagle21
My guess is the gear was not lowered on the 1st landing
You'd have audible warnings though? If true it would certainly be on the CVR unless there was some fault with that system but it's such a rookie mistake.

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Old 22nd May 2020, 22:57
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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There was a gear unsafe warning going off during R/T between the plane & ATC. Seems they tried to land gear up, scrapped the pods on the Rwy then went around, the rest is obvious as to what happened next.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 23:09
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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That warning may well not be a gear unsafe warning, most likely an overspeed while trying to loose the height and configure
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Old 22nd May 2020, 23:32
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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“Possible” scenario, (as the Swiss cheese has happened before in a 320)

Aircraft is doing the slam dunk, trying to get down, Gear out, Flaps out-maybe not at Conf Full, or 3 because of the rushed approach, have realised well and truly unstable, called Go Around, in the heat of the moment, the PF has pushed the Thrust into MCT instead of TOGA. There is the increase in thrust and sound of the engines, and because of the repetition in Sim sessions, the PNF has called positive climb, even though they weren’t, due to the ‘go around mouth music’.... PF has then called for gear up. Gear is selected up, but the aircraft is still sinking towards the runway, with speed increasing.....and ‘maybe’... both engines have contacted the runway? They’ve realised, gone to TOGA and flown away. Then with some damage ECAM is lighting up with stuff, Rat is extended.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 23:42
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by eagle21
That warning may well not be a gear unsafe warning, most likely an overspeed while trying to loose the height and configure
Nup, they where with Twr well into the App/Ldg so unlikely to be anything other than gear not down. To land a modern day jet like the Airbus gear still up is almost unimaginable but they tried by the looks of things!
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Old 22nd May 2020, 23:49
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flava Saver
“Possible” scenario, (as the Swiss cheese has happened before in a 320)

Aircraft is doing the slam dunk, trying to get down, Gear out, Flaps out-maybe not at Conf Full, or 3 because of the rushed approach, have realised well and truly unstable, called Go Around, in the heat of the moment, the PF has pushed the Thrust into MCT instead of TOGA. There is the increase in thrust and sound of the engines, and because of the repetition in Sim sessions, the PNF has called positive climb, even though they weren’t, due to the ‘go around mouth music’.... PF has then called for gear up. Gear is selected up, but the aircraft is still sinking towards the runway, with speed increasing.....and ‘maybe’... both engines have contacted the runway? They’ve realised, gone to TOGA and flown away. Then with some damage ECAM is lighting up with stuff, Rat is extended.
It would really surprise me if this really happened, because it is (or should) be well known to Airbus pilots that SRS and Go-Around mode do not activate if the thrust levers are not advanced in the TOGA detent. If for any reason the thrust levers are not properly set, the PF would notice immediately that something is wrong on the FMA, because he would still see the normal modes that guide the aircraft in the landing phase.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 23:54
  #136 (permalink)  
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According to FlightAware records, the aircraft (AP-BLD) hadn’t flown in the last 60 days.

Was the aircraft parked and stored in accordance with the AMM/MP?

https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/aircr...g-and-storage/


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Old 23rd May 2020, 00:05
  #137 (permalink)  
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According to Flightradar24 the aircraft operated regularly till 22MAR. After that:

07MAY 2 legs
19MAY 2 legs
21MAY 1 leg (MCT-LHE)
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Old 23rd May 2020, 00:06
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Originally Posted by Grav
It would really surprise me if this really happened, because it is (or should) be well known to Airbus pilots that SRS and Go-Around mode do not activate if the thrust levers are not advanced in the TOGA detent. If for any reason the thrust levers are not properly set, the PF would notice immediately that something is wrong on the FMA, because he would still see the normal modes that guide the aircraft in the landing phase.
I agree with you, however it has happened before, but the crew realised their error just under 100ft RA and avoided contact with the runway without landing gear. Human Factors is an amazing thing.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 00:09
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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A plausible scenario I can think of is:

PF “Go Around Flap”
PF moves THRLVR up one click.
PM “positive climb” (momentary, not sustained)
PF “gear up”
PM selects gear up.
No FMA Readout.
AC not in TOGA and keeps descending. Realised when still descending - just before pods hit. Selects TOGA.

It caught out an Australian airline some years ago, although without the ground contact.

EDIT - was distracted and took ages composing and have just seen others have same conclusion.

EDIT 2 - Have just heard audio of landing clearance read back with Continuous Repetitive Chime going off. It wasn't going off at the clearance for the approach. Whatever happened occurred between the two. Maybe there was gear problem that forced the go around.

Last edited by compressor stall; 23rd May 2020 at 00:56.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 00:58
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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If for any reason the thrust levers are not properly set, the PF would notice immediately that something is wrong on the FMA, because he would still see the normal modes that guide the aircraft in the landing phase.
Reading the FMA could have been missed. A Jetstar Australia A320 almost contacted the runway during a go-around when the thrust levers weren't fully advanced into the TOGA detent. However this was during thick fog so it's reasonable to assume that the autopilot was engaged.

https://australianaviation.com.au/20...around-mishap/

If they were at 3500' and 5nm, based on normal approach speeds they were around 2 minutes from touchdown and would have needed a descent rate of around 1700 fpm which is double what would normally be expected and well outside stabilised criteria. The gymnastics involved in trying to salvage the situation would suggest that the aircraft would have been hand flown at the time. Clearly, a safe landing wasn't possible but the go-around might have only been initiated after a prolonged float down the runway, it would be interesting to see how far along the pavement ground contact occurred. An early gear retraction before confirming "positive climb" and possible non engagement of TOGA when go-around was initiated look increasing likely.
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