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KLM final flight B747

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KLM final flight B747

Old 30th Mar 2020, 19:18
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Groundloop View Post
If you mean as a freighter, that is not what it was originally designed for. Juan Trippe of Pan Am wanted a large capacity passenger airliner and Boeing built it for him. True that they used a lot of the work originally put in to Boeing's failed bid for the USAF C5 competition - but the 747 was significantly different from that.
True, but when the 747 was originally developed it was assumed that SST aircraft would soon take over the lions share of long range air travel (the concurrent development of the 747 and the 2707 SST put quite on strain on Boeing resources - both manpower and $$$). So as procede correctly notes, the 747 was designed to be easily turned into a freighter after the SST aircraft became mainline.

Of course, widespread SST use never happened, and the 747 became a backbone of long haul passenger traffic for over 30 years. Oh, and it made a pretty good freighter as well.
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Old 30th Mar 2020, 21:03
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I always wanted to know why pilots who have flown the B-747 loved it so much. I've heard from many of them it was their favorite airliner.
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Old 30th Mar 2020, 21:20
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It has 4 of everything important (engines, generators, hydraulic systems...), can easily run on any 3 of each, will still work with 2 in a pinch, and can survive long enough to get to an airport on 1...
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Old 30th Mar 2020, 21:54
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I don't feel this way about the other Boeing's except the 767 which I haven't actually flown but I can probably fly the 747, with no training on the 747 coming in with 757 knowledge and do pretty well, so I've been told

Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 13th Apr 2020 at 08:39.
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Old 30th Mar 2020, 22:10
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Range View Post
I always wanted to know why pilots who have flown the B-747 loved it so much. I've heard from many of them it was their favorite airliner.
I think Intruder has it...I have just a few thousand hours on the 747-100/200 and then the 744, in both seats, and sat up top you sort of felt you were master of all you surveyed and certainly on those long flights over hours and hours of icy stuff .(Canada,, Siberia) it was nice to know you had lots of backup/redundancy etc.

OTOH I have to be honest though and say my newer current steed (Boeing big twin) has a much better "office"......

and if you must ask...neither are the favourite aircraft I've ever flown... my heart is somewhere else..

yeah I know, ....he's a witch, burn him...

Last edited by wiggy; 30th Mar 2020 at 22:24.
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Old 30th Mar 2020, 23:34
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
OTOH I have to be honest though and say my newer current steed (Boeing big twin) has a much better "office"........
True . I always said the T7 was designed to be flown by old men . A real breeze to operate on ULR . Great cockpit , great systems , which is why I wished I could have flown the 74-8 with the same avionics set up . Didn't happen .

However, that aside , the 744 had to be the best . Queen of the Skies indeed . People wax lyrical about the 380 , but in the Jumbo cockpit , you looked down on pretty well everybody (maybe a C5 guy would beg to differ ; don't know what their eye height is ).

(p.s talking about favourite CIVIL aircraft here....)
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Old 30th Mar 2020, 23:53
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Originally Posted by Phantom Driver View Post
However, that aside , the 744 had to be the best . Queen of the Skies indeed . People wax lyrical about the 380 , but in the Jumbo cockpit , you looked down on pretty well everybody (maybe a C5 guy would beg to differ ; don't know what their eye height is ).
Out on the Boeing flight line, when the weather was nice they'd frequently have the overhead escape hatch open to provide ventilation to the flight deck (with the sun shinning, it could rapidly get pretty hot and stuffy up there with the packs not running). I'd occasionally get up and stick my head out the hatch and think about what it would be like to have to grab one of the inertial reel handles and jump out of that hatch.
Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't do it in an emergency, however the alternative would have to look pretty grim before I'd try it...
Anyone know if that hatch and the inertial reels were ever used in a real emergency?
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 01:15
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't do it in an emergency, however the alternative would have to look pretty grim before I'd try it...
I'm with you on that one. I've been with three airlines that had '74's and had the same thoughts when doing the annual egress training. It reminded me of Jack Benny's classic schtick where the robber pulls a gun and demands 'Your money or your life!' After a long pause Benny says 'I'm thinking, I'm thinking...'

I remember you had to step up on the FE seat on the classics to get up to the hatch.

Here's a KLM training video with some embedded Pan Am and Lufthansa film on operation of the hatch:



Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Anyone know if that hatch and the inertial reels were ever used in a real emergency?
They were certainly used in the Pan Am 73 hijacking in KHI in 1986. The FE apparently was first to go out after running down the spiral stairs and seeing the hijackers. There were tales over at the Pan Am Space Academy in MIA that the FE came back up the stairs, yelled 'I quit' and exited the overhead hatch without further adieu. The pilots eventually followed leaving purser Neerja Bhanot in command. By all accounts she saved many lives before she was shot in the head by the 'militants' as CNN called them.



Pan Am had a training film about the hijacking a year later. The FE was conspicuously absent in the dramatization as I recall.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 02:04
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Those were the times where they encouraged cooperation with the hijackers from the pilots...for obvious reasons that advice is dead...Now you (if somehow the cockpit is breached) will probably meet Mr crash axe upside your skull.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 02:24
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Originally Posted by BRE View Post
What makes her "no longer fit for the purpose" from a pax perspective? The 787 is even noisier on the inside, in my impression.
I found the B787 much quieter also the C cabin has the old layout in that you trip over your fellow pax when trying to get out of the window seat also rather cramped, admittedly it was fairly obvious that KLM were allowing the cabin to be run down. From a PAX view I returned from ICN on QR ICN-DOH-EDI on an A350 strikingly different but it's merely a changing of the times.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 05:03
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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The Range,

Not only did the 747 have all the system redundancy that Intruder describes, but it also had astonishingly benign handling qualities at a time when most jet transports had some unpleasant ones such as Mach Tuck at high Mach numbers, Dutch Roll in certain configurations and Deep Stall problems. The 747 had none of these and was a veritable 'gentleman's aerial carriage'.

Despite its size, a lovely aircraft in all respects.

Last edited by Bergerie1; 31st Mar 2020 at 10:46.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 07:59
  #32 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Intruder View Post
It has 4 of everything important (engines, generators, hydraulic systems...), can easily run on any 3 of each, will still work with 2 in a pinch, and can survive long enough to get to an airport on 1...
Yet, sadly, the same company only installed 2 of many important sensors and decided to use only one on the 737.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 12:04
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Anyone know if that hatch and the inertial reels were ever used in a real emergency?
I don't know about any emergency, but there was an occasion about 22 years ago where three crewmembers 'escaped' through this hatch and did a little dance on top of the upper deck fuselage. Photo reached the news outlets. The crewmembers involved had to look for a different employer shortly after.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 12:31
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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My first international flight was on a B747 nearly 43 years ago. Since them I have travelled between four continents on B747s with four different airlines, They have always been pleasant flights. (Well... one was 'staff travel' and 11 hours on a cabin crew seat -- but it got me there and was very memorable!) My last was on a KLM B747 15 years ago.

A couple of weeks ago I parked up near a new B747 -- in UPS colours. Good to see them still in production.
Here's a couple of them having a 'laugh' about that:

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Old 31st Mar 2020, 12:44
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jhieminga View Post
I don't know about any emergency, but there was an occasion about 22 years ago where three crewmembers 'escaped' through this hatch and did a little dance on top of the upper deck fuselage. Photo reached the news outlets. The crewmembers involved had to look for a different employer shortly after.
Wrong, the FO, who is in the picture, is now a captain, and the captain, who was on the ramp taking pictures of the whole thing, kept his job too and retired at the usual age. They were lucky that the photo, which appeared on the front page of a national newspaper, was viewed generally positively by the public, portraying KLM as a fun place to work.



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Old 31st Mar 2020, 12:56
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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And I have used the inertia reels (not in an emergency but only to test) and they gave a very gentle slide down the side. It was really rather comfortable!
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 13:41
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by esa-aardvark View Post
When I flew the steward remark was - we'll finish the Dom Perignon and then start on the Krug.
Will those days ever return ?
SQ still serves Dom and Krug (or Taittinger) in F, so I'm not sure I get your point?
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 13:46
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bergerie1 View Post
And I have used the inertia reels (not in an emergency but only to test) and they gave a very gentle slide down the side. It was really rather comfortable!
Wow, that was brave! Quite literally, a leap of faith
​​​​​​
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 15:10
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jhieminga View Post
I don't know about any emergency, but there was an occasion about 22 years ago where three crewmembers 'escaped' through this hatch and did a little dance on top of the upper deck fuselage. Photo reached the news outlets. The crewmembers involved had to look for a different employer shortly after.
Here's a news report on these Darwin Award contenders from the Associated Press.

KLM crew in trouble after walking on roof of Boeing jumbo jet

September 10, 1997

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) _ KLM Royal Dutch Airlines is investigating a pilot and two flight attendants who were photographed cavorting on the roof of a parked jumbo jet.

The picture, which appeared in several newspapers Wednesday, showed the three walking shakily along the roof of the Boeing 747-400 with their knees bent and arms outstretched, apparently for balance.

The jetliner was grounded in Guatemala City with no passengers aboard. A photographer for the Belgian newspaper De Morgen captured the stunt.

``We believe the crew has taken an unacceptable degree of personal risk, and we will investigate the matter thoroughly,″ KLM spokesman Hugo Baas said Wednesday. Disciplinary action against the three was being considered.

Bass said only maintenance workers can go onto a plane’s roof and only when they are hooked up to safety gear.


It was toward the end of the days of crew stunts and pranks and at the rise of political correctness and victim empowerment.

Remember this British Airways incident reported in The Sunday Times?


May 5 1999

Stewardess takes off as plane lands

BY ARTHUR LEATHLEY, AVIATION CORRESPONDENT

EVERYONE was pleased when a British Airways jet arrived almost half an hour early at Genoa. Travellers were able to make an early start for their hotels, and Italian airport workers were able to see a half-naked air hostess running down the steps and around the plane.

The stewardess had bet the pilot that she would strip down to her underwear if their flight from Gatwick reached its destination early. The 23-year-old brunette not only kept her side of the bargain, she also put on the captain's cap, tip-toed down the aircraft steps after most of the passengers had disembarked and sprinted around the Boeing 737, "smiling and wiggling" according to onlookers, before re-boarding.

However, while the new incentive for punctual flying was universally praised in Italy, BA officials back home were less than amused. "We take this very seriously," a spokesman said. "It seems there was some inappropriate behaviour and we are looking into the details of what happened." He claimed that the woman also wore a yellow tabard to protect her modesty. The stewardess, who has not been named, has been allowed to continue working while an inquiry is carried out, although the company declined to reveal which route she is using.

The respected Italian newspaper La Repubblica praised the ingenuity of the wager: "It is only a pity that most of the passengers missed the most pleasant and original aspect of the flight, which was the real reason it came in early."
And it's all fun and games until somebody gets hurt. Or, more likely these days, gets sued.
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Old 31st Mar 2020, 15:57
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A couple of 747 jumpseat remembrances.

Years ago I got a jumpseat on a 747 freighter. The newhire flight engineer gave me the required egress briefing. She said that if we need to use the upper deck slide 'Grab ahold of my belt loops and you'll be the second one off the aircraft!'

I jumpseated ORD-NRT on United prior to 9-11. The plane was booked full with standby's listed and there were three FO's on the B-744. It was one of those boom times pre-BK pilot contracts with a little featherbedding. The third FO was added to 'plot' the course on overwater routes. I think a first class seat was used for crew rest in those days, I'm not sure.

The captain warmly welcomed me onboard but the FO in the right seat seemed to vet me rather skeptically. He asked for my ALPA card while flipping though his copy of the Jumpseat Protection List. The captain later took me aside and apologized for this bit of drama from his coworker.

Even though the flight was oversold the purser somehow redid the pax count after the doors closed and she gave me a first class seat for the journey. In those days you could drink alcohol at United as a jumpseat rider as long as you didn't return to the cockpit for eight hours. I was treated like a minor deity and it was great.
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