Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Flight paths to be redrawn

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Flight paths to be redrawn

Old 29th Jan 2020, 09:05
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Age: 63
Posts: 24
What would the likely impact be on GA, gliders etc?
golfbananajam is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2020, 10:17
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London
Age: 39
Posts: 530
Not obvious to authority, as virtually every UK airport with different direction runways has had its cross runways closed over the years - Heathrow, Prestwick, Edinburgh, Birmingham etc. I can only think of Belfast Aldergrove as remaining.
Prestwick's is still open and in common use, mainly because it's the only one that's actually into wind during the winter....
Skipness One Foxtrot is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2020, 14:32
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: on the way to sea
Posts: 235
in the heart of Europe free route airspace from GND to UNL is in use for some years now, no problemos what so ever.
kontrolor is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2020, 14:58
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,200
Surely in the London area only a bit of tinkering is possible since with airports at every point of the compass and a huge proportion of flights headed east or south there is very little that can practically be done.

Sounds like an airborne version of 'smart ' motorways to me , and on a day where Northern Rail is nationalised by an arch tory government underlines that we really dont do transport very well in the UK. Although saying that thnka sto the ingenuity of those in the flying and ATC business we manage to keep things going with substandard facilities better than most but in the end that lack of long term planning and lack of actual space on the ground or in the air catches up with us
pax britanica is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2020, 16:41
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: southampton
Posts: 223
Free route over the London FIR will come in. NATS are working on it. It'll probably be FL310+.

The problems with redesigning the London FIR are

1. There is limited space because of the closeness of the airports in and around London.

2. The amount of traffic that wants to go south and east from London and the same with overflights

3. No matter how well you design SIDs and Stars that theoretically miss each other IF the aircraft flies them exactly you will end up with some traffic being penalised at the expense of others (that's a big if...)

4. You can redesign the airspace around London as much as you want, take the traffic from one place to another, change this route and this route etc etc but you've still got to connect it to Europe which is not going to redesign their airspace to suit the UKs fancy plan...

5. The military
1985 is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2020, 09:27
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: A place in the sun
Age: 78
Posts: 853
For all you ATC people, could something like this help at the London airports?

Bergerie1 is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2020, 12:08
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,348
Originally Posted by Bergerie1 View Post
For all you ATC people, could something like this help at the London airports?
<<SNIP>> video<<SNIP>>
I think NATS is up to speed on multi-airport sequencing they have also extended the sequencing out into adjacent FIR/UIR see:

Cross border arrival management
Cross border arrival management - Gatwick

Free route over the London FIR will come in. NATS are working on it. It'll probably be FL310+.

The problems with redesigning the London FIR are

1. There is limited space because of the closeness of the airports in and around London.

2. The amount of traffic that wants to go south and east from London and the same with overflights

3. No matter how well you design SIDs and Stars that theoretically miss each other IF the aircraft flies them exactly you will end up with some traffic being penalised at the expense of others (that's a big if...)

4. You can redesign the airspace around London as much as you want, take the traffic from one place to another, change this route and this route etc etc but you've still got to connect it to Europe which is not going to redesign their airspace to suit the UKs fancy plan...

5. The military
#4 - the FABEC as kontrolor stated above is already moving to 'Free Route' Airspace' (FRA) so it will actually simplify the adjacent FAB traffic management as the same concept will be in place seamlessly across Europe into the mid-line of the Atlantic and possibly into NAV Canada airspace as ADS-B surveillance is now available through AIREON.

#5 The military have been reluctant to let go of 'their MTAs' and ranges. However, there are ways that military can fit into FRA as it matches the existing Operational Air Traffic (OAT) ideas and the Flexible Use of Airspace. So a restricted area can be generated and removed as required this is a lot easier with automation and System Wide Information Management. There are similar issues with reserved airspace for civil operations. I would expect that flexible use of airspace will be part of the overall redesign of UK airspace.

The future is flexible. For airlines your FOCs should be looking at the issues raised for flight planning if there are no 'fixed routes' or 'preferred routes' (in NAS speak). So canned plans will no longer exist - or not for profitable aircraft operators - so lots more work for dispatch to plan efficient flights.
Ian W is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2020, 18:16
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London UK
Posts: 6,427
I fear that any aviation proposal for anything nowadays, regardless of its value, will get swamped in the media and politics by the "don't you know there's a climate emergency" increasingly hysterical bandwagon. Regardless also of the fact that the public still increase their use of aviation each year.
WHBM is online now  
Old 30th Jan 2020, 19:37
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,348
Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
I fear that any aviation proposal for anything nowadays, regardless of its value, will get swamped in the media and politics by the "don't you know there's a climate emergency" increasingly hysterical bandwagon. Regardless also of the fact that the public still increase their use of aviation each year.
It may actually go the opposite way if UK CAA/NATS is savvy about things. There are several research papers analyzing the impact of the Free Route Airspace over mainland Europe and the flight miles saved and associated fuel savings are very significant. So it should be put forward as a redesign of the airspace to reduce fuel consumption [cough] emissions.
Ian W is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2020, 09:36
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: A place in the sun
Age: 78
Posts: 853
For those who are not quite sure what Free Route Airspace (FRA) is, take a look at this Eurocontrol video:-


Europe needs to implement FRA as widely as possible across the whole ECAC airspace, and for individual states to develop the Terminal Area (TMA) route structures so that they maximise flight efficiency and throughput (not always mutually compatible) and which connects with the surrounding FRA. If this is done correctly for the London TMA, these routes will then be compatible with the FRA across France, Belgium, Holland and Denmark to the east and to the joint UK/Irish FRA airspace to the west.

I sincerely hope this is the aim of the this work on the London TMA. The main problem will be the public outcry when certain minimum noise routes are changed. But aircraft a good deal quieter these days. The PR drive should be directed towards describing the benefits of the greater flight efficiency (reduced fuel burn and emissions) and the reduction of holding delays (also reducing fuel burn and emissions) and improving punctuality.

Pie in the sky - I hope not!!
Bergerie1 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.