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Thomas Cook Gone

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Thomas Cook Gone

Old 30th Sep 2019, 13:43
  #161 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
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G-TCDA flew out to Montpellier a couple of days back....
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 14:09
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator View Post
Since when do you have to BUY aircraft. More aircraft are leased than not. The brand and its reputation is worth something irrespective of fleet ownership
Exactly again - the brand name and reputation ( plus the slots ) are excellent for Condor and a big bonus, the ageing fleet of 75 and 76 is not.
And I don't see Condor buying or leasing newer aircraft anytime soon.
The "bridge loan" is only valid for 6 months and the buyers are not lining up outside their HQ....
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 20:44
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Your comment is true. No line-up at their HQ. There is even strong opposition within Lufthansa, who would be the the best option for a purchase.
Even if all goes well, and they find a buyer, the biggest hurdle would be the EU watchdogs, who need to give their blessing. They are not known
for making good ( common sense ) decisions. As far as news is concerned, there is more or less total silence at this time.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 12:19
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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For those who are not operating through the various European holiday airports, and thought Thomas Cook were gone, you way be surprised to know that ops in full Thomas Cook livery continue, from departure points other than the UK. For example, 767 G-VYGK, in joint Thomas Cook-Condor branding, continues to run these routes. See here https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/g-vygk . So that's a Cook's aircraft on the UK register and thus presumably on a UK AOC somehow.

Well done Cooks' German management, who borrowed money to buy German operators, stuck the loans on the UK company, didn't sort out adequate repayments from the continuing German operation, and when they couldn't be repaid declared the UK operation insolvent while those elsewhere continued.

Interesting to see what the receivers make of this, and what they say about the auditors' oversight of the loans back and forth. Likewise those UK holidaymakers whose trips were ruined while those from elsewhere were not.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 12:32
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Sadly, not long after the UK government refused to help out with a loan/guarantee of 200Million, the same government is quite happy to throw 500Million into a stupid scheme to ensure people living in rural areas can continue to watch their iPhones while strolling down the street!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50179195
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 12:55
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
a stupid scheme to ensure people living in rural areas can continue to watch their iPhones while strolling down the street!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50179195
What a ridiculous mischaracterisation of the scheme. The article makes no mention of wandering down the street, but of someone in their own home. The level of signal involved is not "watch[ing videos on] their iPhones" but receiving phonecalls.

And such investment has a defined benefit. Pouring 200m down the drain does not.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 13:09
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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So that's a Cook's aircraft on the UK register and thus presumably on a UK AOC somehow.

That will be Air Tanker's AOC then.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 14:36
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
For those who are not operating through the various European holiday airports, and thought Thomas Cook were gone, you way be surprised to know that ops in full Thomas Cook livery continue, from departure points other than the UK. For example, 767 G-VYGK, in joint Thomas Cook-Condor branding, continues to run these routes. See here https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/g-vygk . So that's a Cook's aircraft on the UK register and thus presumably on a UK AOC somehow.

Well done Cooks' German management, who borrowed money to buy German operators, stuck the loans on the UK company, didn't sort out adequate repayments from the continuing German operation, and when they couldn't be repaid declared the UK operation insolvent while those elsewhere continued.

Interesting to see what the receivers make of this, and what they say about the auditors' oversight of the loans back and forth. Likewise those UK holidaymakers whose trips were ruined while those from elsewhere were not.
AirTanker 330 ☺️ (Just being pedantic)
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 14:39
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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What a ridiculous mischaracterisation of the scheme
As is your interpretation of it. The money invested in Thomas Cook would have ensured some degree of certainty re thousands of people's jobs. Receiving phone calls in their homes, you say? BT probably already has lines to most, if not all, of those homes.
As for a defined benefit, I would like to see what that may be.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 17:11
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.airtanker.co.uk/leasing
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 17:33
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dc9-32 View Post
So that's a Cook's aircraft on the UK register and thus presumably on a UK AOC somehow.

That will be Air Tanker's AOC then.
Well I'm familiar with Air Tanker's livery. This one is just branded Thomas Cook, no mention of Air Tanker, and is bringing Thomas Cook passengers out on holiday. All on a UK registration of an airline that has gone bankrupt and wasted many people's holidays, not to mention the job loss. Doesn't really matter who the lessor is, does it ?

I wonder if it worked into a UK airport it could be seized.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 18:26
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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It belongs to Air Tanker. So it cannot be seized.

And it is flying for Condor. So not Thomas Cook passengers. Thomas Cook no longer exists.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 18:59
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dtaylor1984 View Post
What a ridiculous mischaracterisation of the scheme. The article makes no mention of wandering down the street, but of someone in their own home. The level of signal involved is not "watch[ing videos on] their iPhones" but receiving phonecalls.

And such investment has a defined benefit. Pouring 200m down the drain does not.
to be fair the operators have payed a blinder and got the government to pay for Half the cost which they were on the hook for already...
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 23:23
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dtaylor1984 View Post
What a ridiculous mischaracterisation of the scheme. The article makes no mention of wandering down the street, but of someone in their own home. The level of signal involved is not "watch[ing videos on] their iPhones" but receiving phonecalls.

And such investment has a defined benefit. Pouring 200m down the drain does not.
So the final bill for the failure of TCG to the taxpayer is likely to be in excess of 480 million. I think 200mil in loan guarantees (just like the Germans have done) will turn out to have been a bit of a bargain. And thats before we start totting up the collateral damage to handling agents, engineering, foriegn hoteliers. O and of course the welfare of 9000 employees. Yeah, of course there was nothing to be done, just do nothing and watch the bills tot up. I can't wait to see what the final tally will be.
http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articl...f-atol-renewal

Last edited by macdo; 26th Oct 2019 at 23:23. Reason: added link
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Old 27th Oct 2019, 06:21
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Nah, TC had been struggling already for a longer time. A loan guarantee would have just pushed the bankruptcy back with X amount of months.
Different story if TC would have been a Italian flag carrier. Then you could just expect the gov to bail you out time after time.
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Old 27th Oct 2019, 13:41
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FRogge View Post
Nah, TC had been struggling already for a longer time. A loan guarantee would have just pushed the bankruptcy back with X amount of months.
Different story if TC would have been a Italian flag carrier. Then you could just expect the gov to bail you out time after time.
You are half right. The tour company and the group as a whole had structural problems dating back to the merger with MYT and the CoOp shop chain. The debt mountain was, in the end, insurmountable. But, the expectation was, that the Group would enter pre-pack administration, which would have led to the profitable parts being sold off. The UK airline, after quite a few lean years, had been turned into a profitable company. (ironically the loss making airlines in Europe got bailed out). Had the government stumped up the cash to keep it going, they would have avoided the huge liability that ATOL has incurred and the fairly good chance that the airlines would have been bought by a bidder. There were bidders for the respective airlines earlier in the year, but at the time the BoD didn't think the price was enough and when the bidders got wind of the extra demands by the banks/debt holders reduced their offer again. I'm pretty sure that this whole sorry affair, once the dust has settled, will reflect badly on both BoD and Government. Of course, any will there be any ramifications for those held responsible? Na, don't be daft. Meanwhile the PBI are down the Job Centre.
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Old 27th Oct 2019, 21:35
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FRogge View Post
Nah, TC had been struggling already for a longer time. A loan guarantee would have just pushed the bankruptcy back with X amount of months.
Remember what Meysman said (noting that he said was no guarantee of truth), that the 200m was just extra cover for W2020, the debt equity swap would have cleared half of the gross debt etc etc "and" the banks were happy. HM Government were just a security.

Now, "I believe that" this is the reason why TCG are not here -Q152 Drew Hendry: Given that situation, why do you think the Government said no to you? Peter Fankhauser: Um— Drew Hendry: I am asking you. Peter Fankhauser: I can just say what is in the letter. They did not want to create a precedent to support the business. I was awfully sad when I had the high official on the phone at about 5 o’clock in the evening, because I knew that I had to throw in the towel.

Just imagine giving a lifeline to a commercial business pre Brexit, when, if things get tough, post Brexit, a precedent has been set. OK, a political problem, but.......




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Old 30th Oct 2019, 12:10
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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Where there is a will -

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-th...-idUKKBN1X9160

But that part of the still vertically integrated business, always delivered a healthy profit
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 17:37
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Litebulbs View Post
But that part of the still vertically integrated business, always delivered a healthy profit
Bit of a myth. The published profit for the Scandinavian operation is only because the amount Thomas Cook borrowed to acquire Tjaereborg, Spies, Vingresor, etc (all the onetime big Scandinavian names) was borrowed in London and booked against the Group. It has been the failure to repay these loans and/or their associated interest that has knocked down the UK-based Group and the associated UK travel operations. The trading results of the UK and the Scandinavian actual operations were pretty similar. It's been a real accounting massaging of the figures.

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Old 30th Oct 2019, 19:17
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not questioning anything you say WHBM. When were these purchases made?
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