MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures
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Here's another news article on the elevator crank used on the 737 NG and MAX:
Wall Street Journal Article
... and let's tolerate the technically incorrect descriptions, WSJ is trying to communicate to the lay folk.
I have never flown a 737 and hopefully none of us have had the opportunity to work this crank under the most adverse conditions.
So is a printed sheet of paper describing this difficulty good enough training?
From what I gather, existing 737 simulators do not reproduce this problem. But they should!
Wall Street Journal Article
... and let's tolerate the technically incorrect descriptions, WSJ is trying to communicate to the lay folk.
Turning the crank moves a horizontal panel on the tail, which can help change the angle of the plane’s nose. Under certain conditions, including at unusually high speeds with the panel already at a steep angle, it can take a lot of force to move the crank in certain emergencies. Among other things, the people familiar with the details said, regulators are concerned about whether female aviators—who typically tend to have less upper-body strength than their male counterparts—may find it difficult to turn the crank in an emergency.
So is a printed sheet of paper describing this difficulty good enough training?
From what I gather, existing 737 simulators do not reproduce this problem. But they should!
Here's another news article on the elevator crank used on the 737 NG and MAX:
Wall Street Journal Article
... and let's tolerate the technically incorrect descriptions, WSJ is trying to communicate to the lay folk.
Wall Street Journal Article
... and let's tolerate the technically incorrect descriptions, WSJ is trying to communicate to the lay folk.
Re the elevator crank and difficulty in turning, I've posted this link before but worth reposting
Shutdown caused Boeing crash. - Page 4 - International Skeptics Forum
Quote..
"I agree it's a flawed design. And I used to work there. I'm glad I don't now.
Regarding the trim wheels: When the NG was being introduced, I happened to be the Lead Engineer in charge of them and a whole lot of other stuff. There were some issues. The new display system created a pinch point between the dash and the wheel. We had to make the wheel smaller. And the new trim motor resulted in the wheel, which is directly connected to the stabilizer by a long cable, springing back when electric trim was used. It was an undamped mass on the end of a spring. We had to add a damper. Result: Depending on the flight conditions, the force to manually trim can be extremely high. We set up a test rig and a very fit female pilot could barely move it.
As I said, I'm glad I'm no longer there."
Alchad
Shutdown caused Boeing crash. - Page 4 - International Skeptics Forum
Quote..
"I agree it's a flawed design. And I used to work there. I'm glad I don't now.
Regarding the trim wheels: When the NG was being introduced, I happened to be the Lead Engineer in charge of them and a whole lot of other stuff. There were some issues. The new display system created a pinch point between the dash and the wheel. We had to make the wheel smaller. And the new trim motor resulted in the wheel, which is directly connected to the stabilizer by a long cable, springing back when electric trim was used. It was an undamped mass on the end of a spring. We had to add a damper. Result: Depending on the flight conditions, the force to manually trim can be extremely high. We set up a test rig and a very fit female pilot could barely move it.
As I said, I'm glad I'm no longer there."
Alchad
Last edited by Alchad; 19th Jun 2019 at 13:41.
Psychophysiological entity
We had to add a damper.
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OUCH....Sully and Carey testimony before Congress...
Retired pilot Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told a congressional panel Wednesday that pilots should practice the failure of Boeing flight-control software on simulators, not planes full of passengers.
"Reading about it on an iPad is not even close to sufficient," he told the House aviation subcommittee.
The president of the pilots' union at American Airlines says Boeing made mistakes in its design of the 737 Max and not telling pilots about new flight-control software on the plane.
Daniel Carey says Boeing's zeal to minimize pilot-training costs for airlines that would buy its 737 Max jet contributed to errors that led to two deadly crashes and left a "crisis of trust" around aviation safety.
In his testimony Wednesday, Carey drew attention to MCAS, which was designed to make the Max feel like previous 737 models to pilots despite engines that were larger and placed more forward on the wings and changed the plane's aerodynamics.
"This was a fatal design flaw built into the aircraft at the factory," Carey said in an earlier interview
Carey is concerned that pilot training on the updated MCAS system may not be comprehensive enough. He also upbraided those who believe the crashes could not have happened in the United States, calling that notion presumptuous and disrespectful to foreign pilots.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/l...040539837.html
Retired pilot Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told a congressional panel Wednesday that pilots should practice the failure of Boeing flight-control software on simulators, not planes full of passengers.
"Reading about it on an iPad is not even close to sufficient," he told the House aviation subcommittee.
The president of the pilots' union at American Airlines says Boeing made mistakes in its design of the 737 Max and not telling pilots about new flight-control software on the plane.
Daniel Carey says Boeing's zeal to minimize pilot-training costs for airlines that would buy its 737 Max jet contributed to errors that led to two deadly crashes and left a "crisis of trust" around aviation safety.
In his testimony Wednesday, Carey drew attention to MCAS, which was designed to make the Max feel like previous 737 models to pilots despite engines that were larger and placed more forward on the wings and changed the plane's aerodynamics.
"This was a fatal design flaw built into the aircraft at the factory," Carey said in an earlier interview
Carey is concerned that pilot training on the updated MCAS system may not be comprehensive enough. He also upbraided those who believe the crashes could not have happened in the United States, calling that notion presumptuous and disrespectful to foreign pilots.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/l...040539837.html
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Yet even Carey in the same testimony says that sim training is not necessary for the MAX to fly again, and "watching videos" is enough training for MAX pilots. So at the end of the day, it's all talk. 
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"This is your Captain speaking. Thank you for choosing XX America Airlines. This is to let you know my First Officer and I just watched the MCAS video.
Please turn off your electronic devices..."
Last edited by Fly Aiprt; 19th Jun 2019 at 22:23. Reason: Typo
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It's not that simple. In the testimony Sully acknowledged that requiring sim training for everyone would be a logistical problem, although he wants pilots to get the sim session as soon as possible.
It looks like the pilot unions, the airlines, and the FAA FSB will recommend that CBT (including the video) will be enough for return to service. Then pilots will get full MCAS / trim runaway training during their next scheduled recurrent training, which could be up to 9 - 12 months away depending on the airline and individual circumstances.
There's a notion that maybe pilots specifically flying the MAX could get the training first, but assuming the software fix is implemented, the probability of a trim runaway will be practically similar between the MAX and NG.
It looks like the pilot unions, the airlines, and the FAA FSB will recommend that CBT (including the video) will be enough for return to service. Then pilots will get full MCAS / trim runaway training during their next scheduled recurrent training, which could be up to 9 - 12 months away depending on the airline and individual circumstances.
There's a notion that maybe pilots specifically flying the MAX could get the training first, but assuming the software fix is implemented, the probability of a trim runaway will be practically similar between the MAX and NG.
I read somewhere that the Ethiopian AOA was damaged by a bird strike, but I don't think even that's official from the investigation team.
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G
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It looks like the pilot unions, the airlines, and the FAA FSB will recommend that CBT (including the video) will be enough for return to service. Then pilots will get full MCAS / trim runaway training during their next scheduled recurrent training, which could be up to 9 - 12 months away depending on the airline and individual circumstances.
.
.
In the meanwhile, will depart in 5 minutes, please fasten seat belts..."
Last edited by Fly Aiprt; 19th Jun 2019 at 23:39. Reason: Typo
This also opens up the issue of what constitutes sufficient training when moving amongst aircraft of the same type but different series. Would an pilot flying an old A319 be happy getting straight into an A321 NEO ? Types have now evolved over a few decades and more advanced systems have been gradually incorporated. Possibly a type rating needs to be more narrowly defined with more training given between variants ?
There is a thread running concerning the differences in rotation between the current and NEO airbus aircraft, nothing major but the pitch rate is noticeably different.
There is a thread running concerning the differences in rotation between the current and NEO airbus aircraft, nothing major but the pitch rate is noticeably different.
Last edited by krismiler; 20th Jun 2019 at 11:29.
It is laughable that a regulator will state that simulator training is a requirement, but then allow companies to operate for any period without having done that training.
If any accident should happen in that window before simulator training - the regulator/s will be left carrying the can, and I just can not see more than one regulator putting up their hand to carry someone else's poor past decisions.
If any accident should happen in that window before simulator training - the regulator/s will be left carrying the can, and I just can not see more than one regulator putting up their hand to carry someone else's poor past decisions.
Psychophysiological entity
I'm not sure finding what happened to the vane is on the critical path. Yes it failed and everything else resulted from this failure, but this a part that is known to fail infrequently. As such a failure should not lead to 360 families losing loved ones . . .
