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MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures

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MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures

Old 20th Jun 2019, 10:36
  #521 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Smythe View Post
I did notice that the IAG order called them the 737-8 and 737-10...no MAX mention.
Both of those are the Max models.
The NG models are labelled-700, -800, -900 etc
A 737 labelled 737-8,-9, -10 are all Max models
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 11:00
  #522 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Turbine Overheat View Post


Both of those are the Max models.
The NG models are labelled-700, -800, -900 etc
A 737 labelled 737-8,-9, -10 are all Max models
Any attempt by Boeing to obscure the 'build' of the aircraft will only deepen the loss of trust in the overall 'brand' in my view.

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Old 20th Jun 2019, 11:32
  #523 (permalink)  
 
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MAX always was a pure marketing name. Certification, sims and such always had 737-8 written in or painted on. No surprise that marketing won't use MAX anymore.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 19:16
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SWA goes rogue...

Count Jon Weaks, the powerful and tell-it-like-it-is president of Southwest Airlines’ Pilots Association (SWAPA), as pretty fed up with Boeing Co. and the aircraft manufacturer’s handling — so far — of the far-from-resolved 737 MAX crisis.

That was made abundantly clear in a new memo distributed on Wednesday to the more than 8,500 pilots who fly for Southwest Airlines. The Chicago Business Journal obtained a copy of the lengthy memo.

Southwest is the world’s largest operator of the MAX aircraft with 34 in its fleet and hundreds more on order. The MAX was abruptly grounded in the United States on March 13, after two fatal crashes of the MAX within a five-month period that killed nearly 350 people. A Lion Air MAX crashed last October, and an Ethiopian Airlines MAX crashed in February.

Weaks’ new memo to SWAPA pilots makes abundantly clear his mounting frustration with the conflicting information coming out about the MAX and its possible return to service.

Right at the top of his new memo Weaks notes: “With the confusing information coming from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), national and geopolitics and Chicago-based Boeing’s (NYSE: BA) continued missteps, there is no accurate estimate of when the MAX will return to service. Present projections range from September to December.”

But Weaks was particularly critical of the MAX manufacturer in his missive: “Boeing seems to receive more bad news with every passing week, and still needs to learn how to rebuild trust as well as the airplane. Boeing failed to disclose MCAS initially, failed to build in redundancy, and failed to notify the FAA of issues related to MCAS in a timely manner.” MCAS is the software built into the MAX that is believed to have been a key factor in both fatal crashes of the aircraft.

Though Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenberg publicly apologized for the crashes in a recent interview with CBS News, Weaks still doesn’t like some of the airplane manufacturer’s tactics behind the scenes.

In his memo Weaks said: “In March they (Boeing) expectedly, but reprehensibly, asked to have the venue switched from the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois to Indonesia in order to settle the Lion Air Flight 610 accident for minimal amounts. If Boeing’s tactic succeeds, the cases for the families become nearly worthless and a similar strategy might be attempted for the Ethiopian accident as well."

As Weaks surveys where things stand at this juncture in the MAX crisis, he told his SWAPA pilots on Monday he doesn’t think Boeing is anywhere near free and clear yet.

“While there are still questions and issues with each respective airline’s management, training and flight crews, Boeing still has substantial responsibility and liability and will undoubtedly face many legal issues, civilly and perhaps criminally in the United States federal court system," Weaks said. "A requested change of venue (for lawsuits) only exacerbates and continues to harm Boeing’s image and trustworthiness in the eyes of the public and Congress.”

Last edited by Smythe; 20th Jun 2019 at 19:39.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 19:54
  #525 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Smythe View Post
SWA goes rogue...
SWAPA, not SWA.

SWAPA is maneuvering to get reimbursements from Boeing, mostly for legal expenses the union has to pay to outside attorneys in support of the various MAX probes, hence there's incentive to make a lot of noise right now. SWAPA is also talking about getting compensation for SWA pilots for lost hours, but that's likely a dead end.

SWA, on the other hand, have incentive to negotiate privately, while publicly supporting Boeing. In fact, their CEO reaffirmed SWA's commitment to buy "hundreds more" 737 MAX planes.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 20:06
  #526 (permalink)  
 
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Of course, and therefore, there is nothing of substance in what he states?
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 21:06
  #527 (permalink)  
 
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Now we may remember Boeing taking the C-Series/Delta deal to law to try and stop it, on the basis that it was too cheap for international trade and thus Dumping. Is Airbus going to do the same in reprisal against the Boeing Max deal with IAG ? The circumstances do look similar. And an anti-Dumping action will require the price negotiated to be revealed in court.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1TL0S1

Last edited by WHBM; 20th Jun 2019 at 21:27.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 21:19
  #528 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Smythe View Post
Of course, and therefore, there is nothing of substance in what he states?
​​​​​​​Look, his real point and complaint is about where the LionAir lawsuits will be consolidated -- in US Federal Court or in Indonesia. You know, the part you yourself bolded.

Was Southwest Airlines or SWAPA involved in the LionAir crashed in any possible way? No. Then why is he complaining so much about it?

It's not because anyone gives a **** about the LionAir victim families. There have been many crashes in Indonesia over the years and SWAPA never before gave a damn where the lawsuits were resolved.

He's complaining now because having the lawsuit in the US is better for SWAPA as they try to seek compensation from Boeing.

And personally I find that self serving and rather distasteful.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 21:28
  #529 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by futurama View Post

He's complaining now because having the lawsuit in the US is better for SWAPA as they try to seek compensation from Boeing.
Any legal basis SWA or its union has for damages against Boeing for the grounding of the MAX is entirely independent of the jurisdiction for those seeking damages related to the accidents. Airlines will have recourse based on the purchasing agreements they signed. It is highly unlikely affected employees will have any legal standing to sue for lost wages.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 21:32
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Now we may remember Boeing taking the C-Series/Delta deal to law to try and stop it, on the basis that it was too cheap for international trade. Is Airbus going to do the same in reprisal against the Boeing Max deal with IAG ? The circumstances do look similar.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1TL0S1
The big difference is we don't know how much IAG will pay for each MAX, to determine whether the amount will be below market value.

In the CSeries case, it was clear cut. Boeing was able to "reverse engineer" how much Delta paid for each CS300 from Bombardier's own financial statements. Not to mention the fact that Bombardier had to take a big accounting write-off to support the Delta deal. I mean, who does that.

Hence, Bombardier had to change tactics and pledge to build the CS300 in Alabama. But that was pretty much the end of the program for Bombardier. Given the order book there was no way for them to assemble the CSeries from two factories in two countries and still be profitable.

I have seen no allegation from Airbus or anyone else that Boeing is selling the MAX below cost.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 21:32
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Originally Posted by Aso View Post
Interesting to see the 2014 report on the 787 again... The 737 isnt broken... Boeing is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkEpstd9os
First Boeing said there was nothing wrong with the Max
Then they suggested improper pilot operation.
Then they had to admit maybe something wasn’t the best and suggested a little tweeking of the software code was all that was needed making a safe plane safer they said.
Then they admitted a small oops with the design but again nothing good piloting couldn’t fix plus a little tweak of the software and maybe a small pilot updating.
Then they basically kept their mouth shut and are actively trying to mitigate damage workdwide.
Such as moving out of US courts.

The Max has a major flaw that is clear.
The FAA is not looking pretty on the Max, that is clear.

Boeing is trying to limit monetary damage right and left that is clear.
What is not clear is the promised 100pxt fix.

Where is the fix? Does it work?

Will it turn the Max back to a race horse from the mad bull that it is now a bull that kills.





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Old 20th Jun 2019, 22:02
  #532 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by armchairpilot94116 View Post

What is not clear is the promised 100pxt fix.

Where is the fix? Does it work?
There is no video showing how controlling the fixed MAX is a breeze in the sim.
There is no video showing how manually trimming a fixed MAX in real flight is easy.
There is no video showing Boeing top executives on board a flight test simulating an AOA vane failure.

Maybe there is no fix ?

Or maybe there is more to it than just the MCAS ?

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Old 21st Jun 2019, 01:21
  #533 (permalink)  
 
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Wasnt part of the Ryanair deal, that they would always get the lowest cost?
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 01:33
  #534 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Kerosene Kraut View Post
MAX always was a pure marketing name. Certification, sims and such always had 737-8 written in or painted on. No surprise that marketing won't use MAX anymore.
That is factually incorrect. The flight simulators were clearly branded "737 MAX":

And that's not surprising at all since the 737-8 is only one of the MAX variants.

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Old 21st Jun 2019, 03:17
  #535 (permalink)  
 
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Why is the reason that Boeing rescinded it's invitation to the Allied Pilots Association's MAX simulator session for the 5th June?

Hardly a good way to gain trust or show transparency.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 13:19
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Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Why is the reason that Boeing rescinded it's invitation to the Allied Pilots Association's MAX simulator session for the 5th June?

Hardly a good way to gain trust or show transparency.
It's probably because APA secretly recorded a private meeting with Boeing officials a few months back and then gave excerpts to a local newspaper.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 13:31
  #537 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by futurama View Post
​​​​​​​Look, his real point and complaint is about where the LionAir lawsuits will be consolidated -- in US Federal Court or in Indonesia. You know, the part you yourself bolded.

Was Southwest Airlines or SWAPA involved in the LionAir crashed in any possible way? No. Then why is he complaining so much about it?

It's not because anyone gives a **** about the LionAir victim families. There have been many crashes in Indonesia over the years and SWAPA never before gave a damn where the lawsuits were resolved.

He's complaining now because having the lawsuit in the US is better for SWAPA as they try to seek compensation from Boeing.

And personally I find that self serving and rather distasteful.
How many of those crashes involved design flaws in Boeing aircraft? If somebody in Canada crashes a Nissan pickup because they were drunk then I don't give an *** about it, but if somebody in Canada is driving a Nissan pickup and the wheels fall off due to a design flaw, I do since I drive one.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 20:06
  #538 (permalink)  
 
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Branded Max trainer MAX and 8...



Boeing Campus in Miami/Singapore (not branded) 737-8


Last edited by Smythe; 21st Jun 2019 at 20:17.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 20:56
  #539 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Smythe View Post
Branded Max trainer MAX and 8...
Boeing Campus in Miami/Singapore (not branded) 737-8
This "not branded" on the last pic clearly says MAX on its display in big friendly letters

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Old 21st Jun 2019, 22:02
  #540 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jantar99 View Post
This "not branded" on the last pic clearly says MAX on its display in big friendly letters
I'm not sure what we're trying to prove here.

Nobody is disputing that "MAX" is a (now dumped) brand name, so up to now it's been reasonable to find it in all the places you would expect to see branding. It has never carried any more weight than that, and it will be increasingly hard to find traces of it in future.
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