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MAXs Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures

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MAXs Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures

Old 17th Dec 2019, 06:42
  #4581 (permalink)  
 
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So how to get them there.
Flap extended, crew only ferry flights have already happened.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ia-for-storage

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/b...19-8?r=US&IR=T
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 07:17
  #4582 (permalink)  
 
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Given that MCAS is a system to minimise the additional lift at higher AOA's from the larger engine nacelles which are further in front of the wing (giving a greater moment arm), would a MCAS activated nacelle spoiler not achieve the same effect? You're eliminating the problem at source whilst retaining full control authority.

It's an aerodynamic solution to an aerodynamic problem, MCAS re-programming is minimal, you're using the same values but different implementation.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 07:41
  #4583 (permalink)  
 
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Boeing will temporarily halt production of its troubled 737 Max airliner in January, the manufacturer said.

737 Max Production to be suspended

IG
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 08:19
  #4584 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by edmundronald View Post
Any engineer asked to do that design with an aero sensor in the loop would normally have started with a multi-input spec because sensors are notorious for going on the blink.
...
"Joe, the guys in the engineering cab are having a problem with a pitch up during wind up turns. It's now too late for any hardware modifications, we need to fix it in software. You remember that MCAS gizmo we did for the tankers. We need that in the Max to counter it.

"But boss, that's an entirely different code base. We can't just copy and paste that into the Max. Systems engineering must do a hazard and risk analysis for that, is it already in progress? They haven't come to see me yet."

"Well Joe, we do have the STS, we do also hava a hazard and risk analysis for that. Just do a reimplentation in there. Maybe we'll need to add a line or two to the analysis. After all, at worst case, it's just a runaway trim, as it always has been. The guys in the engineering cab are waiting for a prototype by the end of the week."

"Boss, the KC46 uses both AOA sensors but we are having only the one hardwired to us available in the STS subsystem. We need to request a new basline from R***C***, making the remote one available to us. That takes three months. We also need to fix synchronisation issues due to transport delay . Then systems engineering has to define behaviour in case of AOA disagree. Has the display and alerting concept been revised yet? Will we have the same kill switch, we have on the KC46 for it? When can we expect a spec for that? By the way, our task run time of the STS on that 'ol FCCs are already boarderline. I can't guarantee that we can actually fit it in there."

"Joe, flight testing is already on the way. The project must not be delayed. It is crucial for the companies future in the single aisle market. We have a problem, we have solution from the KC-46 project. We will follow a "do min" approach. No hardware modifications. Just make it work with one AOA sensor. Systems engineering will take care of the remainder. You make a prototype available to the engineering cab by end of week."
...
What would you do?

Last edited by BDAttitude; 17th Dec 2019 at 09:19.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 08:59
  #4585 (permalink)  
 
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Is this the line to short Boeing stock? I don't think it will be flying in service until mid 2020, and that's if they get the fix right. Which they won't.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 09:09
  #4586 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BDAttitude View Post
What would you do?
Send in my resume to a Toulouse based company. If you move the company headquarter to Chicago, it does not take long until you have Chicago style solutions to engineering problems.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 09:25
  #4587 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BDAttitude View Post
"Joe, the guys in the engineering cab are having a problem with a pitch up during wind up turns. It's now too late for any hardware modifications, we need to fix it in software. You remember that MCAS gizmo we did for the tankers. We need that in the Max to counter it.

"But boss, that's an entirely different code base. We can't just copy and paste that into the Max. Systems engineering must do a hazard and risk analysis for that, is it already in progress? They haven't come to see me yet."

"Well Joe, we do have the STS, we do also hava a hazard and risk analysis for that. Just do a reimplentation in there. Maybe we'll need to add a line or two to the analysis. After all, at worst case, it's just a runaway trim, as it always has been. The guys in the engineering cab are waiting for a prototype by the end of the week."

"Boss, the KC46 uses both AOA sensors but we are having only the one hardwired to us available in the STS subsystem. We need to request a new basline from R***C***, making the remote one available to us. That takes three months. We also need to fix synchronisation issues due to transport delay . Then systems engineering has to define behaviour in case of AOA disagree. Has the display and alerting concept been revised yet? Will we have the same kill switch, we have on the KC46 for it? When can we expect a spec for that? By the way, our task run time of the STS on that 'ol FCCs are already boarderline. I can't guarantee that we can actually fit it in there."

"Joe, flight testing is already on the way. The project must not be delayed. It is crucial for the companies future in the single aisle market. We have a problem, we have solution from the KC-46 project. We will follow a "do min" approach. No hardware modifications. Just make it work with one AOA sensor. Systems engineering will take care of the remainder. You make a prototype available to the engineering cab by end of week."
...
What would you do?
as someone whos experienced the corporate world up close and personal, this is exactly, and I mean exactly how things happen!
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 09:27
  #4588 (permalink)  


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Angry

Originally Posted by Longtimer View Post
I don't give a damn what Scully says about the max, what I need is definite proof that the fixes are in place and finalized, without that. ........ Thank god for Airbus alternatives.
To paraphrase a long-standing tag-line -- "If it's Boeing, I AIN'T going"
I've been following "the Boeing safety story" --not just the MAX -- since the second crash and the whole sequence, including the sub-contractor quality (lack of!) etc scares the hell of this Frequent Flyer and former aviation staff. Fortunately my most recent flights have all been on "the other big manufacturer".
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 09:27
  #4589 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EDLB View Post


Send in my resume to a Toulouse based company. If you move the company headquarter to Chicago, it does not take long until you have Chicago style solutions to engineering problems.
In Tououse your union might be more powerful. Otherwise ... companies are global, so are their morals - minor differences may apply. Probably not worth leaving your continent of choice.
At least I have experienced those attitudes in good old European engineering companies, no apparent links to the wild west.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 09:43
  #4590 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone know what the ongoing maintenance requirements are for all these grounded aircraft, are they inhibiting any of the engines, APU’s etc or are they being run periodically.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 09:54
  #4591 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DHC4 View Post
Anyone know what the ongoing maintenance requirements are for all these grounded aircraft, are they inhibiting any of the engines, APUs etc or are they being run periodically.
Not sure if all but Smartwings in PRG periodically runs their MAXes.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 09:54
  #4592 (permalink)  
 
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So, let me build a tiny timeline and speculate a bit. A lot, actually.

Four days ago FAA Administrator Stephen Dickson met with Boeing CEO and former Chairman Dennis Muilenburg. It was Friday. And something was said at that meeting so bad that Muilenburg cancelled his weekend of golfing and prioritizing safety and sped to Chicago to cease the 737MAX production. Considering that China demanded full re-certification, I think Dickson told Muilenburg that 737MAX would never fly again. Right now Muilenburg and Boeing are "boiling a frog" and waiting for their year-end bonuses to come through, after which they will declare the end of the program.

PS Can we on PPRuNe agree on and adhere to a simple English language rule that a person or a machine that's underwent certification is called "certified" NOT "certificated"? I just can't stand that non-word anymore.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 10:16
  #4593 (permalink)  
 
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Is it maybe a case that they can not get a software update to work and they are now looking at a possible major change to hardware? or a complete redesign and may not be able to mod those already built? Or is it as simple as they have just run out of storage room?
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 10:17
  #4594 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DHC4 View Post
Anyone know what the ongoing maintenance requirements are for all these grounded aircraft, are they inhibiting any of the engines, APUs etc or are they being run periodically.
There are short term and long term storage procedures.

Some companies put in long term procedures a few months ago (at a guess Boeing also did at least for the last 5 or 6 months), the rest have been living the dream on the short term program.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 10:21
  #4595 (permalink)  
 
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The pressure on the FAA to accept it is safe will now be immense. Boeing have played their trump card.

The next step will be the Trump card with EASA.

And 'we are so close to a trade deal with China'...........
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 10:23
  #4596 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by scr1 View Post
Is it maybe a case that they can not get a software update to work and they are now looking at a possible major change to hardware? or a complete redesign and may not be able to mod those already built? Or is it as simple as they have just run out of storage room?
There is plenty of storage - 800ish frames into a 5,000 order.

It might be the cut time, as it would no longer get the Grandfather rights and be another $10 billion ( now $ 20 billion as i now need dotting and t's around the globe) to build a clean sheet is required.

Will the CEO and Board really be accountable?
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 10:33
  #4597 (permalink)  
 
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How long can Boeing keep the MAX program practically going without building actual aircraft?
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 10:43
  #4598 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
How long can Boeing keep the MAX program practically going without building actual aircraft?
and how long can their key subcontractors keep going without producing goods or getting paid..?
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 10:47
  #4599 (permalink)  
 
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They had planned for rate 57. Just think about all those engines in the pipeline.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 11:02
  #4600 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets View Post
I'm wondering if they couldn't be flown to customers on a unique agreement that the hardware could be used for static training and engineering familiarity.
Perhaps unique in civil aviation, but (Boeing) Chinook HC Mk2, 1993-96. 'Ground Training and famliarisation only'. Reason - Unresolved design defects identifed in 1987 and unverified safety critical software.
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