Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

QF72 the aftermath

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

QF72 the aftermath

Old 17th May 2019, 12:37
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK/OZ
Posts: 1,701
QF72 the aftermath

A startling and frank account of the long term effects on a pilot, following a loss of control of QF 72 at 35,0000ft


mjb

​​​​​​​https://www.smh.com.au/national/i-ve-become-very-isolated-the-aftermath-of-near-doomed-qf72-20190514-p51n7q.html

mickjoebill is offline  
Old 17th May 2019, 14:14
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Tent
Posts: 472
Just fly the aeroplane!

Power and pitch - Fly the plane.
Bend alot is offline  
Old 17th May 2019, 14:23
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: FNQ ... Still!
Posts: 3,439
Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Just fly the aeroplane!

Power and pitch - Fly the plane.
Except the pitch wasn’t working!
Capt Fathom is offline  
Old 17th May 2019, 14:50
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 102
Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Just fly the aeroplane!

Power and pitch - Fly the plane.
Bend alot

Strongly suggest that you read the book. He did fly the plane and that's why all those people are alive.

Roybert
roybert is offline  
Old 17th May 2019, 15:09
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: dublin
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Capt Fathom View Post


Except the pitch wasn’t working!
It looks like the triple AOA inputs had one false input which the other two did not vote out, so the plane reacted. Not much the pilot could do since it was all over in a very short time. But for readers of ET and Lionair who are banking on triple or double AOA inputs solving the MCAS event, it looks like at the end of the day, no amount of automation is going to ensure a safe flight in every situation. Things can happen that nobody had anticipated or just plain go wrong. As in this case.
Here things called pilots are used. Now, if you don't train those pilots to hand- fly in RAW DATA and MANUAL CONTROL, as seems increasingly to be the case, we enter a dystopian world where if the computers cannot cope in every possible situation - clearly an impossibility, then the outcome is not good to contemplate. I believe that following ET and Lionair there is going to be a rip roaring battle between the automators and the hand flyers. It is much cheaper and easier to stuff in some more software and avoid 100 hours plus EXTRA initial training (although this cost is usually borne by the trainee) and longer Type Ratiing Courses probably involving 15 x 4 hours sessions versus the current 9 x 4 hours sessions. Then perhaps 5 full days of recurrent training per annum versus the current 3 - in some airlines 4. A day in the sim. spent doing nothing else but manual interventions and hand flying would be a good start. But then if the airline has a policy of almost banning manual flight above 400 feet as is often the case on the line, that gets us nowhere.
Oh dear here we go............Took off from Tokyo for Moscow and autopilots would not engage. At all. Flew to Moscow no problem whatsoever. But that was when Pontius was a pilot and of course nobody needs those skills these days, do they!

Happy Flying
Y
yanrair is offline  
Old 17th May 2019, 23:28
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Denver
Age: 52
Posts: 45
Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Just fly the aeroplane!

Power and pitch - Fly the plane.
I guess you needed /s...
Not enough people read all the MAX thread
threads, I got a laugh tho.
hans brinker is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 05:04
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Tent
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by hans brinker View Post
I guess you needed /s...
Not enough people read all the MAX thread
threads, I got a laugh tho.
Yep, went over a few tho.
Bend alot is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 05:05
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,789
Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Just fly the aeroplane!

Power and pitch - Fly the plane.
guess you didnt get it
ironbutt57 is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 05:06
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,789
I can almost bet you, if two ab-initio background pilots were in the cockpit, the outcome would have been very different
ironbutt57 is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 08:26
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 64
Posts: 2,604
Not to diminish what the pilots did on QF 72 in any way - they performed brilliantly.
But they were damn lucky it happened at 35k. Had HAL decided it wanted to kill them at 10k instead of 35k, it's unlikely they could have done anything about it.
Boeing isn't the only airframer that occasionally gets it wrong...
tdracer is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 11:05
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 798
It's reminiscent of another QF loss of control, when a B707 - I forget the model - went out of control in the cruise en route to Bahrain, late '60s/early '70s.

There were signs that while out of control the aircraft had experienced up to +3G to -3G, and may have been inverted at some point.

The reasons were quite complex, but I vividly remember the Captain saying, after we had got the passengers off and into a hotel, that he had only managed to regain control at 6,000 ft (I think it was) by using primary instruments, throttles, "stick and rudder", and doing exactly what he would have done in the Tiger Moth he had learned in.
old,not bold is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 17:47
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: U.K
Posts: 184
Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Not to diminish what the pilots did on QF 72 in any way - they performed brilliantly.
But they were damn lucky it happened at 35k. Had HAL decided it wanted to kill them at 10k instead of 35k, it's unlikely they could have done anything about it.
Boeing isn't the only airframer that occasionally gets it wrong...
at 10k the result would have been the same, from memory they lost less than 700 feet in the first instance, before returning to 37k, and the second incident was not as severe.
Selfloading is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 18:04
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 0
Talk about being a drama queen!

That Capt needs to remember that QF hasn't had an accident for many decades, unless you of course count that Bangkok 747 or A380 Titanic of the Skies.
A320ECAM is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 20:27
  #14 (permalink)  

"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Age: 73
Posts: 3,031
Talk about being a drama queen!
Were you there? Has it ever happened to you? If not, your comment is out of order.
Herod is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 03:39
  #15 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 784
Originally Posted by A320ECAM View Post
Talk about being a drama queen!

That Capt needs to remember that QF hasn't had an accident for many decades, unless you of course count that Bangkok 747 or A380 Titanic of the Skies.
On what basis would you make such a derogatory remark? I happen to have flown with the Captain in the military and in the same airline, and he was a competent, unassuming pilot with a wealth of experience. The crew were presented with a flight control anomaly that was well outside of normal bounds, and got everyone on the ground in one piece. It was some time later before any rational guidance on what to do with an errant FBW system came from the OEM. The Airbus is less friendly in this case than the B777 or 787, where it is a simple matter to remove the FBW inputs and degrade to a B747.

Unless you have been confronted with a dynamic life threatening situation where you shoulder the immediate responsibility for the welfare of some hundreds of other people, I would hold your own counsel in mute ignorance.

fdr is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 04:13
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 3,036
Talk about being a drama queen!
There talks an individual who has never faced his maker. Many an aviator has gone down with PTSD following a dramatic event, I'm one, so back in your box and grow up. Thumbs up to the previous two posters.
It's reminiscent of another QF loss of control, when a B707
Colloquially known as "The Bahrain Bomber". Story here

http://www.aussieairliners.org/b-707...formation.htmlt

Currently flying with the 116th Air Control Wing, Warner Robins Air Force Base

Last edited by megan; 19th May 2019 at 04:31. Reason: Added info
megan is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 09:48
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: sussex
Posts: 45
Arrow

I expect his computer told him to post that.
42go is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 23:20
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 64
Posts: 350
I expect we’ll eventually get to read about Mr 320ECAM in a crash comic. Unless you’ve been there, and you very obviously haven’t, you can keep your comments to yourself.

PTSD is very real, and following on from a major aviation event, is a likely outcome. We can be as capable as we like in flight, but once we get back on the ground, and away from the aircraft, pilots are as likely to have issues as anyone else. Perhaps more so, as they are less likely to say anything because of our fear of medical involvement.

This was a nasty event, that was well handled. It does not need to be compared to any other QF event, in an attempt to devalue it.
mrdeux is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 23:45
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 551
Originally Posted by ironbutt57 View Post
I can almost bet you, if two ab-initio background pilots were in the cockpit, the outcome would have been very different
What makes you think that? An underlying hatred of ab-initio pilots and jumping on the bandwagon that they “crack under pressure”?

Most pilots flying airliners today did come through ab-initio schemes. That particular airline itself has run ab-initio schemes for over 50 years which have produced hundreds of successful pilots, Captains, Chief Pilots and Training Captains on aircraft as large as the A380.

The incident didn’t take extreme skills or knowledge to recover from. The crew did a great job, but I’m sure any well trained crew (ab-initio background or not) would have successfully handled this incident.
dr dre is offline  
Old 20th May 2019, 04:41
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Hiding..... in one hemisphere or another
Posts: 1,052
Talk about being a drama queen! That Capt needs to remember that QF hasn't had an accident for many decades, unless you of course count that Bangkok 747 or A380 Titanic of the Skies.
WTF???

This has nothing to do with PTSD..... just ask members of the armed forces who are suffering from it.

It's not in anyway my place to chastise people on here but, that is an ill-informed and insolent comment and...... miserably inadequate.
Atlas Shrugged is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.