Warning! Bureaucrats believe pilots spouses are terrorists!
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You know it's time that something was done about the idiots firing off new rules. If, for example, no plane took off with a politician on board- it's amazing what defects can 'stop' you flying, when they realised their holidays in Tuscany weren't going to work until sense was restored to the system, then maybe they wouldn't fire such stupidity in our direction! Idea worth developing?
Prop. Head,
I think if you read the regs. posted above it says that company employees, with a ticket, passport and ID are OK even if they are not on duty travel which means that company pilots will be OK as will other company staff.
So someone who could have been with the company for 2 weeks, has had no security checks run on them at all other than a reference and who you have never clapped eyes on is OK but your wife of 30 years, son, daughter, mother or father is not. Oh yeah that makes perfect sense Mr PenPusher, I feel safer already.
I think if you read the regs. posted above it says that company employees, with a ticket, passport and ID are OK even if they are not on duty travel which means that company pilots will be OK as will other company staff.
So someone who could have been with the company for 2 weeks, has had no security checks run on them at all other than a reference and who you have never clapped eyes on is OK but your wife of 30 years, son, daughter, mother or father is not. Oh yeah that makes perfect sense Mr PenPusher, I feel safer already.
Could not agree more, what we do at the moment is a total waste of time dreamt up to make it look as if we are doing something. The ONLY way to secure the flightdeck in an effective way is to use the El-Al system of having two doors in an airlock type arrangement, in fact a door between the galley and the cabin would be better. In this way there is never an open access to the flightdeck from the cabin, we are talking millions for a major mod. here but as the airlines and the CAA/DOT etc. put safety first I am sure that they will decide that it's best option. NOT!.
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Many years ago, when staff travel for BA loaders etc. was threatened by the then labour government the lads just waited until a senior polly and his wife, (on a taxpayer funded trip), were on board the aircraft and then they just walked away and left it!
Threat to staff travel for loaders lifted within 24 hours!
Threat to staff travel for loaders lifted within 24 hours!
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Imagine........ and as was posted some time back....
Right now we have to lock the flightdeck door from just after engine start, until engine shutdown; With the exceptions being for food and beverages to be brought into us, or for us to answer a 'call of nature' and / or for any other reason that might require us to leave the flightdeck ( e.g. to stretch our legs, i.e. compared to the average pax, we seem to be strangely immune to the effects of DVT - but don't start me on that one ! ) and where during such sojourns we now have to have a flight attendant be present in the flightdeck to ensure that the flightdeck door is 'guarded' ( and / or that the other pilot doesn't seize the opportunity to crash the aircraft ).
So ( quite obviously ) at numerous points during a flight the flightdeck door is unlocked to allow a cabin crew member to enter or a pilot to leave ( a process usually commenced either from the FD by a double ding-dong on the flight-interphone - audible in the cabin - to summon a cabin crew person to ask them to enter the FD, or by the cabin crew calling us on the same interphone - an action that's often visible within the cabin ).
Now, if you're Jonnie Terrorist the ideal time to strike would be the moment when your typical 8 or 9 stone (female) cabin crew person opens the flightdeck door, and you can be very sure that your aircraft hijacker is familiar with airline SOP's, e.g. just what a double ding-dong might mean is about to happen w.r.t. the FD door, and / or a cabin crew person standing outside the FD door with two teas nearby and using the interphone - it's not exactly rocket science is it ?!
Remember also that Jonnie has been highly trained for this task and he/she is quite prepared to die and kill for his/her beliefs ( and he/she is more than likely also being aided and abetted by several cohorts, who are similarly well trained and prepared to kill and die ).
Basically your cabin crew member(s) in such an assault would not stand a chance, and in all probability their last conscious thought would be of some disturbance behind them ( Jonnie and his mates leaping into action ) just as the FD door is being opened - and all in that split second before Jonnie snaps the FA's neck in two.
So imho, this whole cabin crew 'guarding' the flightdeck and / or us locking the door is about as effective as having the cabin crew try to break-up a fight between rival football supporters - they'd basically get their arses kicked - and in case it hasn't occurred to anybody the FD door is opened ( for operational reasons ) loads of times during your average flight - the terrorist(s) just need to pick the moment to commence the assault.
One must hope that the DETR folks get to read the above proposed major failing in their plan to keep us alone and under lock-and-key, and one also rather hopes that it's somewhat 'shot their fox' ( something which is definitely not PC under 'New Labour' ) else otherwise the lunatics will have most certainly taken over the asylum.
So ( quite obviously ) at numerous points during a flight the flightdeck door is unlocked to allow a cabin crew member to enter or a pilot to leave ( a process usually commenced either from the FD by a double ding-dong on the flight-interphone - audible in the cabin - to summon a cabin crew person to ask them to enter the FD, or by the cabin crew calling us on the same interphone - an action that's often visible within the cabin ).
Now, if you're Jonnie Terrorist the ideal time to strike would be the moment when your typical 8 or 9 stone (female) cabin crew person opens the flightdeck door, and you can be very sure that your aircraft hijacker is familiar with airline SOP's, e.g. just what a double ding-dong might mean is about to happen w.r.t. the FD door, and / or a cabin crew person standing outside the FD door with two teas nearby and using the interphone - it's not exactly rocket science is it ?!
Remember also that Jonnie has been highly trained for this task and he/she is quite prepared to die and kill for his/her beliefs ( and he/she is more than likely also being aided and abetted by several cohorts, who are similarly well trained and prepared to kill and die ).
Basically your cabin crew member(s) in such an assault would not stand a chance, and in all probability their last conscious thought would be of some disturbance behind them ( Jonnie and his mates leaping into action ) just as the FD door is being opened - and all in that split second before Jonnie snaps the FA's neck in two.
So imho, this whole cabin crew 'guarding' the flightdeck and / or us locking the door is about as effective as having the cabin crew try to break-up a fight between rival football supporters - they'd basically get their arses kicked - and in case it hasn't occurred to anybody the FD door is opened ( for operational reasons ) loads of times during your average flight - the terrorist(s) just need to pick the moment to commence the assault.
One must hope that the DETR folks get to read the above proposed major failing in their plan to keep us alone and under lock-and-key, and one also rather hopes that it's somewhat 'shot their fox' ( something which is definitely not PC under 'New Labour' ) else otherwise the lunatics will have most certainly taken over the asylum.
Last edited by Devils Advocate; 9th Aug 2002 at 23:12.
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Take your daughters to work!
When does this piece of garbage take effect? Aug. 31st?
Ladies and Gentlemen, I think it's time to officially designate Sept. 1st as 'take your daughters to work day'
(If you haven't got a daughter, a son, wife, husband, parent, or, at a pinch, parent-in-law
, will do)
R 1
Ladies and Gentlemen, I think it's time to officially designate Sept. 1st as 'take your daughters to work day'
(If you haven't got a daughter, a son, wife, husband, parent, or, at a pinch, parent-in-law
, will do)R 1
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But you missed something, Devil's, I am still waiting for the FAA (and therefore all the world's airlines and other regulatory agencies that have to dance to their tune) to change the recommendations for handling a hijacking situation. As it stood before 9/11, and to the best of my knowledge (correct me, someone, please!) the duty of an airliner crew, as dictated by FAA policy, is to cooperate with a hijacker. If he says "open the cockpit door" then that is what must happen. So of what use is a bar?
The root cause of the 9/11 disaster was the reaction of the crew to the hijacking; assuming the bastids were rational. the basic policy has to change, and the FAA is the only authority that can do this. Barring the cockpit is only going to work if crews are instructed to fight any hijacking, and to forget the nonsense about cooperation.
The whole thrust of the actions taken by the authorities so far has been a whitewash. To pull the wool over the customers' eyes. We all know, as do the potential terrorists, that nothing has really changed, and if they wanted to, they could repeat 9/11.
The root cause of the 9/11 disaster was the reaction of the crew to the hijacking; assuming the bastids were rational. the basic policy has to change, and the FAA is the only authority that can do this. Barring the cockpit is only going to work if crews are instructed to fight any hijacking, and to forget the nonsense about cooperation.
The whole thrust of the actions taken by the authorities so far has been a whitewash. To pull the wool over the customers' eyes. We all know, as do the potential terrorists, that nothing has really changed, and if they wanted to, they could repeat 9/11.
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I concur boofhead, and it is precisely (sort of 
) what I was driving at.
Scenario - The CabinCrew are about to bring you a nice cuppa, he/she goes to enter the FlightDeck ( having negiotiated the opening of the door with you on the Interphone - whilst being closely watched by JonnieT ) he/she pulls on the door to open it, at which point JonnieT and friends commence their take-over of the aircraft.
They quickly and easily dispatch the cabincrew at the door, enter the FlightDeck ( through the now open door ), grab the fire axe ( he'll know where it is ) and.............
The QRH onboard my aircraft ( a UK CAA approved document ) still reads as follows ( nearly one year on ) :
Where the last of which will be quite unlikely, e.g. not one of the pax aboard the a/c involved on 9/11 survived and this was where the crews in all probability did have the FD doors locked - as per the FAA FAR's - and where they would have, given the chance, conducted the hijack as per the QRH ( see above ) - so all in all about as useful as a chocolate teapot !
Imho the answer is what El Al have in place, i.e. proper double entry FlightDeck doors (plus vidcams, etc) and much ( read, much ) better security screening / profiling of pax pre-boarding - ah but, that will cost a lot of money won't it ?!
Of course what would help to hinder the access to the FlightDeck ( certainly on a B737 ) would be to HAVE somebody sitting in the jumpseat ( as it's bang smack in the middle of the doorway ) - and better still prefereably somebody you know, e.g. wife, son, daughter, etc....
) what I was driving at.Scenario - The CabinCrew are about to bring you a nice cuppa, he/she goes to enter the FlightDeck ( having negiotiated the opening of the door with you on the Interphone - whilst being closely watched by JonnieT ) he/she pulls on the door to open it, at which point JonnieT and friends commence their take-over of the aircraft.
They quickly and easily dispatch the cabincrew at the door, enter the FlightDeck ( through the now open door ), grab the fire axe ( he'll know where it is ) and.............
The QRH onboard my aircraft ( a UK CAA approved document ) still reads as follows ( nearly one year on ) :
HIJACK
General Advice
In the air:
The safe release of passengers and crew.
- The safety of passengers and crew is paramount
- Transponder..... A7500
- [*]
- [*]
- [*]
- [*]
General Advice
In the air:
- Comply with the initial demands without prejudicing safety ( so how about, "Get out of your seat or we'll kill you in it ?" )
- Negotiate patiently. Do not antagonise. Do not surrender. ( err, I myself don't reckon that you'll have too much say in the matter )
- Avoid actions/movements which might appear hostile. Explain before moving any control, switch. etc. ( no need, by that point you'll be dead too, and JonnieT will be flying the aircraft )
- Keep passengers calm. Prevent them from intervening. ( WHAT ! It's telling you to discount your main source of support !? )
- Consider passing information to controlling authorities. ( 'Controlling Authorities', don't make me laugh )
- Land at a suitable airfield. ( which to JonnieT means on top of the houses of Parliament, or right in the middle of the pitch during a ManU/Arsenal football match, i.e. lot's of TV coverage and lot's of people to kill too )
The safe release of passengers and crew.
Imho the answer is what El Al have in place, i.e. proper double entry FlightDeck doors (plus vidcams, etc) and much ( read, much ) better security screening / profiling of pax pre-boarding - ah but, that will cost a lot of money won't it ?!
Of course what would help to hinder the access to the FlightDeck ( certainly on a B737 ) would be to HAVE somebody sitting in the jumpseat ( as it's bang smack in the middle of the doorway ) - and better still prefereably somebody you know, e.g. wife, son, daughter, etc....
Last edited by Devils Advocate; 10th Aug 2002 at 07:35.
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Max Angle, the way I understand it is :
1) Company employees travelling on DUTY in possession of a ticket, ID and Passport.
2) Any person who has a justifiable OPERATIONAL reason to spend time on the flight deck. Before any such person is allowed to enter the cockpit the following criteria will be met.
Staff travelling on standby do not have an operational reason for travelling, therefore will not be allowed. This will also cover airline personnel travelling to work.
I hope this isn't the case, but I believe it may well be.
Also, many airlines must comply with all safety 'recommendations' from anyone, as a condition of continued membership of airline alliances (eg One-World, Star etc.) The big American players (American / United) insist on security measures as tight as there own, so effectively everyone is obeying FAA rules, or stricter.
1) Company employees travelling on DUTY in possession of a ticket, ID and Passport.
2) Any person who has a justifiable OPERATIONAL reason to spend time on the flight deck. Before any such person is allowed to enter the cockpit the following criteria will be met.
Staff travelling on standby do not have an operational reason for travelling, therefore will not be allowed. This will also cover airline personnel travelling to work.
I hope this isn't the case, but I believe it may well be.
Also, many airlines must comply with all safety 'recommendations' from anyone, as a condition of continued membership of airline alliances (eg One-World, Star etc.) The big American players (American / United) insist on security measures as tight as there own, so effectively everyone is obeying FAA rules, or stricter.
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20 yrs ago I instructed my flight attendants, during my briefing, that visitors to the cockpit would not be allowed.
At the same time the only jump seat personnel I allowed were company pilots.
Used to cause a hell of a stink from time to time...but I stuck to it!
At the same time the only jump seat personnel I allowed were company pilots.
Used to cause a hell of a stink from time to time...but I stuck to it!
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This poorly thought out ruling from on high has generated much emotion.
It has been shown that the only thing this government take much notice of is 'public opinion'.
I am unable to fill the role but does anybody feel like organising petitions amongst all UK airlines followed by a mass peaceful demonstration and ceremonial delivering of same to either the Presidents house in Downing Street or the CAA headquarters at LGW.
It would make good television especially as we are generally such a conservative and placid group!
I would certainly be willing to help and attend.
Just had a final thought. BALPA might be the organisation with the ability within to organise and co-ordinate the protest.
Coupled with communication here perhaps we could stir people from their normal mode of having a good whinge into actually doing something to get things changed.
It has been shown that the only thing this government take much notice of is 'public opinion'.
I am unable to fill the role but does anybody feel like organising petitions amongst all UK airlines followed by a mass peaceful demonstration and ceremonial delivering of same to either the Presidents house in Downing Street or the CAA headquarters at LGW.
It would make good television especially as we are generally such a conservative and placid group!
I would certainly be willing to help and attend.
Just had a final thought. BALPA might be the organisation with the ability within to organise and co-ordinate the protest.
Coupled with communication here perhaps we could stir people from their normal mode of having a good whinge into actually doing something to get things changed.
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Devils Advocate, interestingly enough recent SEP 'Security' module said you comply with the terroists demands.....Yeah righto, I said. The first thing they'll want to do is enter the cockpit even if they aren't gonna decided to turn the aircraft into a cruise missile. However I'm not a mind reader and will not know this. That's why the door will remain locked. There is no way I am gonna comply.
Looks like tea and biscuits for me then.
Anyway moving on.....
I would be especially upset if a hijack was going on and we had just turned down a J/S request by an engineer trying to get home who might just help in saving the day.
It would be very interested to see El Al's QRH regarding hijacking. I somehow think it would be slightly different.
When will the pen pushers learn and see sense. I think the J/S should be at the discretion of flight crew not Jonnie Scribbler from the DoT. We're not monkey's don't treat us like 'em.
Looks like tea and biscuits for me then.
Anyway moving on.....
I would be especially upset if a hijack was going on and we had just turned down a J/S request by an engineer trying to get home who might just help in saving the day.
It would be very interested to see El Al's QRH regarding hijacking. I somehow think it would be slightly different.
When will the pen pushers learn and see sense. I think the J/S should be at the discretion of flight crew not Jonnie Scribbler from the DoT. We're not monkey's don't treat us like 'em.
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BA back Jump Seat Ban
I have just found out that British Airways are supporting the governments plans to ban the use of jumpseats, by friends partners etc.
This plan is ill thought and a major disaster for aviation. Afterall very few pilots, cabin crew, and groundstaff have never considered using our perk.
Please BA don't let the terrorists win. With everybody working together we can come up with a solution that suits everybody.
This plan is ill thought and a major disaster for aviation. Afterall very few pilots, cabin crew, and groundstaff have never considered using our perk.
Please BA don't let the terrorists win. With everybody working together we can come up with a solution that suits everybody.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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MANAGP - IF you are a pilot, and IF your company does not follow the DTR ruling on the use of jump seats, YOUR airline will be grounded, as the situation stands today.
Simple?
Simple?
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BOAC, is there an FCN about this.....? If there is I've missed it. Until that comes out, then surely the situation remains as-is....
I hope the CAA can retain a sense of perspective on this...
I hope the CAA can retain a sense of perspective on this...
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BOAC, I think you missed the point of MANAGP’s posting, that is that British Airways are not only going to enforce this ban (as indeed all operators have to), but they are also supporting this ban (which not all operators will).
(Not a BA bashing attempt, merely trying to clear up confusion!)
(Not a BA bashing attempt, merely trying to clear up confusion!)