Warning! Bureaucrats believe pilots spouses are terrorists!
Join Date: Mar 2000
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These requirements for obs seats in the USA (and in many other areas as well) have been in force for years...and just now those in the UK are whinging...?
And yes, the FAA is subject to the "notice of rulemaking" process, and it works very well, thank you. And, still no fees for a license...yet.
And yes, the FAA is subject to the "notice of rulemaking" process, and it works very well, thank you. And, still no fees for a license...yet.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Speaking as someone who's always found the jumpseat ride a fascinating experience, I can't help thinking that it should be up to the Captain as to who can or can't sit in the cockpit.
Just curious -- has there ever been a case of unlawful interference of an aircraft directly involving a jumpseat passenger, regardless of whether it's a company pilot or 10-year old schoolboy with an interest in the gadgetry?
Just curious -- has there ever been a case of unlawful interference of an aircraft directly involving a jumpseat passenger, regardless of whether it's a company pilot or 10-year old schoolboy with an interest in the gadgetry?
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If the DOT were able to demonstrate a credible and significant risk to safety by allowing "other" people on the flight deck this would be a sensible rule. In the absence of this it is merely jobsworths restricting the freedom of Professionals to do their jobs. Pity there is such a shortage of Professionalism there, one wonders what the sad bustards will hit us with next.
Shame on the DOT
Shame on the DOT
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
Gruadian article:
Pilots rage at end to wives' flight deck perk
Andrew Clark
Guardian
Thursday August 8, 2002
They barely batted an eyelid at bullet-proof doors, humiliating searches and plastic cutlery. But Britain's airline pilots have drawn the line at a security rule which means their wives will be banned from travelling in the cockpit.
A new edict from the civil aviation authority has identified pilots' family members as a potential terrorist threat. Under instructions from the government, the CAA has banned an age-old perk of letting spouses use a fold-down "jumpseat" on the flight deck.
Pilots have reacted with a mixture of fury and disbelief. One said jumpseats were often used for relatives holding concessionary staff tickets when all other seats on a flight were full. "It's a very useful thing for flight crew if their wives or children are going on holiday."
The British Airline Pilots' Association yesterday wrote to the transport secretary, Alistair Darling, objecting to the rule, which will also prevent airline staff from using the seat unless there is an "operational need".
Balpa's deputy general secretary, Graham Fowler, said: "We have requested a meeting to outline our concerns."
A union spokesman said: "This is a ridiculous state of af fairs. There are no safety implications. All the CAA are doing is copying something the Americans have done."
On a website used by pilots (PPRuNe!) to exchange information, they have been venting their outrage at the regulation.
One complained that the "lunatics have truly taken over the asylum", adding: "I always knew my partner of many years was a terrorist."
Another pointed out that if terrorists tried to take control of the plane, any extra able-bodied person on the flight deck could come in handy.
"A jumpseat occupant is a positive asset to security, unless the spouse is a terrorist. But if the spouse is a terrorist, chances are so is the pilot."
British Airways yesterday confirmed it was changing its procedures to comply with the new rule, which comes into force on August 20.
Andrew Clark
Guardian
Thursday August 8, 2002
They barely batted an eyelid at bullet-proof doors, humiliating searches and plastic cutlery. But Britain's airline pilots have drawn the line at a security rule which means their wives will be banned from travelling in the cockpit.
A new edict from the civil aviation authority has identified pilots' family members as a potential terrorist threat. Under instructions from the government, the CAA has banned an age-old perk of letting spouses use a fold-down "jumpseat" on the flight deck.
Pilots have reacted with a mixture of fury and disbelief. One said jumpseats were often used for relatives holding concessionary staff tickets when all other seats on a flight were full. "It's a very useful thing for flight crew if their wives or children are going on holiday."
The British Airline Pilots' Association yesterday wrote to the transport secretary, Alistair Darling, objecting to the rule, which will also prevent airline staff from using the seat unless there is an "operational need".
Balpa's deputy general secretary, Graham Fowler, said: "We have requested a meeting to outline our concerns."
A union spokesman said: "This is a ridiculous state of af fairs. There are no safety implications. All the CAA are doing is copying something the Americans have done."
On a website used by pilots (PPRuNe!) to exchange information, they have been venting their outrage at the regulation.
One complained that the "lunatics have truly taken over the asylum", adding: "I always knew my partner of many years was a terrorist."
Another pointed out that if terrorists tried to take control of the plane, any extra able-bodied person on the flight deck could come in handy.
"A jumpseat occupant is a positive asset to security, unless the spouse is a terrorist. But if the spouse is a terrorist, chances are so is the pilot."
British Airways yesterday confirmed it was changing its procedures to comply with the new rule, which comes into force on August 20.
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Err, just who gives a monkeys what BA are doing
i.e. their managers are pretty much totally discredited w.r.t. being able to manage, and so them bending over in order to be shafted by the DETR and CAA is just about what I'd expect them to do !
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As someone who had the pleasure of occupying the jumpseat on a number of occasions pre-11/9 (737 & 747) I can safely say that my fat lummocks of a body sat right behind the cockpit door would have been a time consuming object for any terrorist to get through, at least in the case of the 737 (ever tried to dismantle the jumpseat in a 737 for the first time?).
I may have had my neck slashed within seconds but in the time it would take someone to get through me and the folded down j/seat the pilots would probably have time to depressurise the aircraft, fire the plastic jungle, commence an emergency decent and grab the crash axe.
Food for thought CAA?
BM.
I may have had my neck slashed within seconds but in the time it would take someone to get through me and the folded down j/seat the pilots would probably have time to depressurise the aircraft, fire the plastic jungle, commence an emergency decent and grab the crash axe.
Food for thought CAA?
BM.
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 9th Aug 2002 at 08:43.
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An Irrelevant Ban
I think Max Angle has hit it on the head, so lets hope the national press make this point too, we are dealing with the politics of envy, nothing more.
A ban on the pilot's family has no relevance to security whatsoever.
A ban on the pilot's family has no relevance to security whatsoever.
Last edited by BlueEagle; 8th Aug 2002 at 23:36.
The DOT today issued guidelines banning pilots from the flightdeck. In response to past incidents it has been decided that pilots represent a security risk to the aircraft.
A DOT spokesperson said that although journey times would become infinate, due to the fact the aircraft never actually moved, the overall safety of the operation would be greatly enhanced by this carefully thought out measure.
God these people are idiots, I wonder what other strokes of genius they will think up to keep us safe.
A DOT spokesperson said that although journey times would become infinate, due to the fact the aircraft never actually moved, the overall safety of the operation would be greatly enhanced by this carefully thought out measure.
God these people are idiots, I wonder what other strokes of genius they will think up to keep us safe.
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Warning! Spouse of flight crew are security threat.
It's surprising that no one has suggested the hostage situation. Husband flying, wife on jump seat, kids with hostage takers. Small or large IED left on Flight Deck for disaster on next leg. Do you people realise that whereas you are subjected to search before flight when you are flying the aircraft, the people who check you, police or customs, (who will not be on the aircraft)are not checked- at least by an independant authority. Same scenario,fellas. Customs Officer, wife in hostage situation, who has freedom airside plants IED on an aircraft. It has always worried me, and I have raised it many times to no avail. You have to trust somebody they say. Why not the schmuck driving the aircraft.
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/...now the next time a senior politician or tv monkey is shown in the cockpit during flight A MIGHTY ****STORM needs to be made. Especially if it is that grinning ape Blair or the wicked witch (Oh brave Cherie, going on holiday after a miscarriage. ****, I don't wish a miscarriage on anyone but pass the airline issue sick bag)
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Ahh.. but will they be permitted on the flight deck during the flight in the first place? Could make a storm over not letting him/her up there as they are potentially a terrorist threat (just sticking to your rules Mr Prime Minister). A lot of people have a hard time trusting Mr Blair anyway 
)
)
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They would be allowed on the flt deck.
The company concerned would make sure it was a Quisling pilot manager, or similar two faced, empire building, brown nosing yes man in the left seat.
The company concerned would make sure it was a Quisling pilot manager, or similar two faced, empire building, brown nosing yes man in the left seat.
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Still could be used to show post-event hypocrisy...
I know when SLFing nowadays I can't be bothered to fly anywhere, particularly the United States of Arseholes, due to the silly regulations and indifference from many ground staffers who are probably rightly pissed off with pax, managers, govt and the world in general
I know when SLFing nowadays I can't be bothered to fly anywhere, particularly the United States of Arseholes, due to the silly regulations and indifference from many ground staffers who are probably rightly pissed off with pax, managers, govt and the world in general
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Right, so that means that I won't be able to get the jumpseat, on my own company, when I'm travelling on standby. Oh, f--king great! So, I guess I'll just have to wait until the following day when I'm operating before I stab the captain in the eye and crash the aeroplane into a major city . What an inconvenience that will be. Just shows the complete beurocracy, generating knee jerk reaction decisions. What a load of cr-p!
How the hell am I suddenly a security threat when I'm paxing, when I'm (so grateful) for being allowed on the flight deck to fly the aeroplane. Just more evidence of us pilots having to suffer for others ineptitude on a grand scale. Oops, there goes the horse, and there shuts the stable door.
If Captains or F/Os can vouch for someones integrity, they should be allowed on the flight deck. It's not in our interest to let some nutter on the flight deck, but nor is it unreasonable to let someone we know and trust on it.
As someone said, a jumpseat occupant is useful on certain a/c for operating the door lock, plus could potentially help fight any hijackers, plus if the person is a pilot adds to the safety of the flight eg) an extra pair of eyes and ears.
I see Balpa hace objected to it, but lets hope airlines have the balls to stand up and fight this. I agree that we need to be seen to be doing something post 9/11, and most of this is just to make the public feel safer, but even the public would see this as laughable and doing nothing but p--s of the hardworking employees of the airlines, who have borne the brunt of things since 9/11 - job cuts, lowering terms and conditions, locked into the flight deck.
Discraceful
. What an inconvenience that will be. Just shows the complete beurocracy, generating knee jerk reaction decisions. What a load of cr-p! How the hell am I suddenly a security threat when I'm paxing, when I'm (so grateful) for being allowed on the flight deck to fly the aeroplane. Just more evidence of us pilots having to suffer for others ineptitude on a grand scale. Oops, there goes the horse, and there shuts the stable door.
If Captains or F/Os can vouch for someones integrity, they should be allowed on the flight deck. It's not in our interest to let some nutter on the flight deck, but nor is it unreasonable to let someone we know and trust on it.
As someone said, a jumpseat occupant is useful on certain a/c for operating the door lock, plus could potentially help fight any hijackers, plus if the person is a pilot adds to the safety of the flight eg) an extra pair of eyes and ears.
I see Balpa hace objected to it, but lets hope airlines have the balls to stand up and fight this. I agree that we need to be seen to be doing something post 9/11, and most of this is just to make the public feel safer, but even the public would see this as laughable and doing nothing but p--s of the hardworking employees of the airlines, who have borne the brunt of things since 9/11 - job cuts, lowering terms and conditions, locked into the flight deck.
Discraceful