Warning! Bureaucrats believe pilots spouses are terrorists!

[Orca strait]

We had everything in place prior to 9/11 to stop the baddies from getting to the flight deck - the system failed from a lethargic bureaucracy whom thought "it won't happen to us". The end result - a myriad of smoke screens while they attempt to get their house in order (i.e. Homeland Security).

[longstay]

derrr, well if anyone takes any notice of this cr*p then you wont be using your standby priviliges will you ?
i,m darn sure that if i found myself presented with crew and spouse that needed to get back, they would travel on the jump seats and thats it.
I would urge everyone to ignore this 'if it's true' nonsence otherwise it will go on and on and on !!!!

[Bird Strike]

Call me dumb, but wouldn't it be harder for the 'invaders' to enter the cockpit (or take control) if there are more people there?

[Low-Pass]

More people in the cockpit would have made no difference to September 11 as I understand it. The hijackers gained access to the cockpit by slicing the necks of a few FA's or threatening to blow up the aircraft with a (fake) bomb. In their situation at that time, I think I would have opened the cockpit door too. Don't you? Few people, if any, thought that that type of attack would ever happen. There were no plans for it and that's why it worked. I don't believe it would now (and events such as the shoe bomber back that up). Perceptions have changed. People would prefer to "go down fighting" than sit passively while being flown into the Capitol Building.

So, denying non-flight crew access to the cockpit will potentially stop the FedEx/BA type hammer-wielding incidents, but please, lets stop deluding ourselves that it would have any great effect upon non-flight crew seizing the aircraft. Screening is the answer to a point, however, we all have to accept that we live in a dangerous world and there is no way of achieving a 100% prevention rate in stopping these sorts of events happening.

[Seriph]

Frightening that such nonsense can be imposed upon the world by a neurotic nation that now wants to create war in the middle east. God help us.

[M.Mouse]

Somebody mentioned the Fedex pilot. What was to stop him carrying out an attack when he was operating if he had been denied the opportunity to use the jumpseat?

Unfortunately life occasionally carries some risk (ssshhh! don't tell the personal injury lawyers).

These new rules will achieve absolutely nothing and if a terrorist wants to blowup/crash another aircraft he/she WILL find a way to do it. If that remote possibility is an unacceptable risk to anybody then why not stay at home and put on another layer of cotton wool.

These rather sad new regulations are just another example of bureaucracy replacing commonsense, a seemingly contagious condition spreading amongst the misnamed 'developed' nations.

[A and C]

lost !

Lost my respect for the CAA and DTI aviation security branch.

Should one of you find my respect please return it to me .

Regards A and C.

[eeper]

How do we stop this?

OK folks, two questions:

a) Where is this information from? CAA website?

b) Who do I write to, to register my disapproval?


To be honest, if I can't trust my own mother/father/brother on the flightdeck then I'm not sure that I can trust the next "CAA Inspector" with his potentially fake id.

[One Hand Clapping]

Eeper - I've met your family.....


But anyway - the jumpseat involvement in 9/11.... - there is a 'rumour' that apparently, one or more of the hijackers were occupying the jump seat prior to the events that followed.

That's all I know....

I think the guy whos saying he will no longer take anyone in the JS including anyone that the FO may know is being rather reactionary. Why not wait for the legislation to make the books, if it is so, that is, before embarking on a one-man mission. You could potentially be denying a lot of very decent individuals the ability to get home etc. - a privilege that you may have taken advantage of yourself in the past? Let's be sensible rather than stamp authority for the sake of it.

[EGCC4284]

Instead of hiring good looking female/male
cabin crew on peanuts, why don't the CAA and
FAA insist that all cabin crew should meet strict
marshal art's self defence, kick boxing, judo,
kung fu, boxing standards and in return the
insurance company's could reduce the premiums
slightly that would offset a higher wage that
would in turn attract such qualified personnel.
It would be a great next job for ex army,
special forces guys and girls coming into
the civilised world.

I know its nice to be flying on your hols being
looked after by the women you can only dream
about but if I could have 6 ex club door men built
like brick s@@t houses on the trolleys,
I know which I would prefer.

It may even cut down the bog standard
air rage incidences

[411A]

Black and brown belts in the cabin...what a novel idea..and why not?

[Low-Pass]

One Hand Clapping

Don't know about your rumor there. Seems like a very long time for such information to have come out and I can't imagine that these new recommendation/regulations would have taken so long to come about if one of the hijackers was 'legitimately' in the jump-seat. More likely, someone has said "What if...?" and that has been translated into "What happened..."

With regard to the ex-doormen dishing out the drinks, I certainly hope not. Their chief value is in intimidating the patrons rather that providing a service. Bruce Lee in the cabin, hmmmm, maybe - but never underestimate the defensive weapon-like qualities of a pillow.

[Hand Solo]

I wouldn't dismiss that 'rumour' too readily Low-pass. Think how embarassing it could be if it was revealed that it hadn't been necessary to force access to the flight deck. You'd certainly want to suppress the fact you'd recovered the CVR. At least you would until you'd tied as many people as possible into a compensation program that prevents people suing the government or airlines. But of course, that isn't happening in the USA. Is it?

[Airbubba]

>>Err. Have I missed something here? Jumpseat involvement with the11/9 attacks?<<

If you have the required access, talk with your security people about this. It has had a chilling effect on interline U.S. jumpseat travel.

[Lan Ding Gere]

I think I've go to agree with Low Pass on this one.

JS or no JS, what's the difference ? If someone wanted to take out a plane there are many other way to do this. It appears that they didn't want to do this on Sept 11 and instead, the terroists wanted to gain control of the aircraft and fly into the WTC.

As LP pointed out slitting the throats of passengers etc , will probably make make most people comply.

So personally I don't see how banning the JS will have any impact

LDG

[Lan Ding Gere]

FORGOT TO ADD

What is the difference between a JS and a seat that has been paid for by a passenger, whether it be ecomony, Business or first. I mean either way they will serve the same purpose. If there is an evil twisted person who wants to down a plane, they will do it whether in the JS, passenger seat or other means.

just a thought

[sky9]

I don’t know why the FBI have got so "one-eyed" about aviation; have you ever seen a baggage scanner in a hotel? It is only a decade since those "friends of the Americans", the IRA attempted to kill the whole British Government in a hotel in Brighton.

[Low-Pass]

Hand Solo - Maybe your right. I just feel that they would have made a greater noise about it sooner. It would be in the airlines interests to conceal such a fact more than the FAA and security agencies, I would have thought.

sky9 - Yes, but it didn't happen in a US hotel and our trans-pond cousins are just a little incensed that it happened to them, that's all. Besides, I believe that the "terrorists" are upset with the US Government and America's capatilistic nature as a whole rather than individuals. The IRA targeted the government and you can be sure that everwhere that "Junior" goes gets a thorough inspection.

Cheers, LP

[Fallows]

I ran a Familiarisation Flight scheme with a major UK carrier where UK ATC staff were able to travel on the flightdeck and observe flight deck procedures. The reports I received back from the ATC staff and the crews themselves were very positive. I believe such flights and their access to the flight deck actually enhanced flight safety. It would certainly be a retrograde step if the regulatory authorities in the UK imposed this ban without giving the company or aircraft commander any flexibility in who he or she has on the flight deck.
Tony Fallows (LACC-Swanwick)

[VeeoneCUT]

DOT A rule too far.

Here we go again.

Hastily thought up hair brain ideas that cannot be justified.

The DOT has just issued a directive to the UK airlines that states that and I Quote:

8.3.12.3 USE OF FLIGHT DECK Supernumerary Crew Jumpseats - Flights to and from destinations other then the USA.

Notwithstanding (8.3.12.1 (basically only crew and CAA)). And subject to the captains approval, use of the crew flight deck jumpseat(s) is only authorised in the following circumstances (in order of precedence):

1) Company employees travelling on duty in possession of a ticket, ID and Passport.

2) Any person who has a justifiable OPERATIONAL reason to spend time on the flight deck. Before any such person is allowed to enter the cockpit the following criteria will be met.

the company dept. sponsoring the individual will provide the DFO or his deputy with written reasons for the request, and include any relevant security profiling the individual might hold, e.g.DfT, AAIB or company security pass.
The DFO or his deputy will liase with the company security manager, or the head of safety and quality, to agree if permission should be given.
If permission is granted then prior to the flight, the DFO or his deputy will provide written authority to the commander of the flight. The letter of authority will include the reason why this individual should have access to the flight deck.

Company employees travelling who are in possession of a valid ticket, ID and passport.

Company employees from the following companies who are in possession of a valid ticket, ID and passport.


What's the problem I hear you say - well the next time you are tying to get back with your girl/boyfriend or family from CPT, BKK, HKG on an ID 90 and the flight is full - you'll be grounded.

The DOT or some officious nerd in an office in London who has been talking to some aviation expert from the daily mail rubbish bin. Has decided that we as pilots and our families now pose a threat to the aircraft when we are travelling on ID90's

Here I have some respect for the American FAA -

In the USA the FAA post NRPM's (Notices of Proposed Rule Making)
These as the acronym indicates is a chance for the aviation community as a whole to bounce around ideas from those who are directly affected by it's content. This has the obvious advantage of possibly making the rule better and more effective.

Once this process is over, then it is brought in.

The government in the UK has the DOT the branch that deals with aircraft is the CAA Safety Regulation Group. But on this one
some geek at the DOT decided that they know best and have penned this un-necessary load of B*****T.

The old chestnut that is thrown around in defence of their ill-conceived ideas is always - "This is needed to improve safety".

How about go one step further and keep the airplanes from carrying passengers, no better still how about fly around really slowly, that would make things safer wouldn’t it. What about flying really low then you wouldn't have so far to fall - how about have 10 engines just incase 3 fail at the same time.

This will do it how about quit flying and go by train.

My point is where does it end -

Ok Ok 9/11 is just around the corner and the Boffins at the CAA and the DOT need to show their managers how they "have improved safety in the year since the tragic events in NYC".

Remember the DOT is the organisation that made us all use plastic cutlery - but we still carry 1 litre glass champange bottles - gallons of flamable alcohol, need I go on...

The DOT are the ones that had my leatherman taken off me but we still have a crash axe and a crowbar.

This new rule is not needed. If they want a new rule let BALPA, and IPA ask their memberships for suggestions.

Our airline has already restricted access and this is now limited to employed company staff only and their families.

If you feel strongly enough, then the DOT email is
Aviation - [email protected]
The Head of the Department is Alistair Darling