Skymarshals now? Where do we go from here?
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Skymarshals now? Where do we go from here?
Sincere condolences to all affected.
There are already rumours of reinstating skymarshals on every flight.What else can we look forward to?
Reinforced cockpit doors?
Armed cockpit (and cabin?) crew?
It would seem that the present policy of cooperation with skyjackers, and compliance with their demands as far as possible, is up for immediate review.
Crew evaluation of the level of threat is going to play a larger part in response technique.
More responsibilty for the poor old Captain, I fear.
Will crews now be trained in some active response to the highest level of threat?
More manuals, questionnaires, tests, and paperwork. AAAArgh!!
May all the most horrid types of Divine retribution be hailed down on all terrorists and their supporters.
edited for punctuation
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: SunSeaSandfly ]
There are already rumours of reinstating skymarshals on every flight.What else can we look forward to?
Reinforced cockpit doors?
Armed cockpit (and cabin?) crew?
It would seem that the present policy of cooperation with skyjackers, and compliance with their demands as far as possible, is up for immediate review.
Crew evaluation of the level of threat is going to play a larger part in response technique.
More responsibilty for the poor old Captain, I fear.
Will crews now be trained in some active response to the highest level of threat?
More manuals, questionnaires, tests, and paperwork. AAAArgh!!
May all the most horrid types of Divine retribution be hailed down on all terrorists and their supporters.
edited for punctuation
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: SunSeaSandfly ]
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I think that flt crew either should be given certain weapons and or Skymarshalls on every flight for the forseable future. Yes pax will have to pay extra. But wouldn't you if it meant missing the Eiffel Tower?
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I am extremely worried about the first couple of 757/767 departures once flights resume. How do we know this was all the terrorrists?
Could not a few more be in departure lounges waiting for the ground stop to end that interfered with their plans? Maybe their plane was delayed by MX or traffic?
If you can grab 4, its not much of stretch to get 6 or 8...
Bolt the door, arm the crews, bring back the skymarshals on ALL flights.
Wino
Could not a few more be in departure lounges waiting for the ground stop to end that interfered with their plans? Maybe their plane was delayed by MX or traffic?
If you can grab 4, its not much of stretch to get 6 or 8...
Bolt the door, arm the crews, bring back the skymarshals on ALL flights.
Wino
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Nothing wrong with having trained ARMED Air Marshalls on every flight. A few airlines already have them and I think a few more will soon do likewise. Personally I don't like the idea that they are armed though.
Have a nice day
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Until you have seen it with your own eyes, walked past it and smelt it like I did this am at the Pentagon you don't appreciate what happened and I can't conceive of what the WTC looks like.
Sky marshalls, armed crew, mug shots of all paxs, and such are fine. The security aspect of the job should be with specialized crew, not half trained cabin crew (this isn't a slam on cabin crew, they didn't sign up to be police). Policy in dealing with hijackers must change too... shoot on sight, shoot to kill, shoot first and ask questions later.
appologies for the rant. I'm too close and this is too soon
Sky marshalls, armed crew, mug shots of all paxs, and such are fine. The security aspect of the job should be with specialized crew, not half trained cabin crew (this isn't a slam on cabin crew, they didn't sign up to be police). Policy in dealing with hijackers must change too... shoot on sight, shoot to kill, shoot first and ask questions later.
appologies for the rant. I'm too close and this is too soon
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Just out of technical curiosity, is it possible to digitally scan fingerprints and encode them in passports/ID cards etc?
If so, would placing fingerprint scanners at the last point prior to boarding help at least ensure that we know who is who on the aircraft and provide coarse filtering of some undesirables?
I know, the cost, but cost becomes less important when faced with the possibility of the kind of mayhem we have recently witnessed.
If so, would placing fingerprint scanners at the last point prior to boarding help at least ensure that we know who is who on the aircraft and provide coarse filtering of some undesirables?
I know, the cost, but cost becomes less important when faced with the possibility of the kind of mayhem we have recently witnessed.
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I think the only practicle way of preventing anny more unlawful interferences in the future is to have Skymarshals on every flight. Having armed crew can be more dangerous if things get out of hand and hijackers will always find a way to get into the cockpit, even with a reinforced locked door.
There is a limit on what can be done with the national civil aviation security program and it sounds like this time, the hijackers have just used brute force, only skymarshals can prevent this !!!
There is a limit on what can be done with the national civil aviation security program and it sounds like this time, the hijackers have just used brute force, only skymarshals can prevent this !!!
The following was copied from Bluecoat.
"I would prefer to have a more secure flight deck. Perhaps we should have a
lav and galley up front, with no access in-flight. Maybe designed such that
the only cockpit door is from the outside. A bit extreme, but denial of
access could stop some situations."
"I would prefer to have a more secure flight deck. Perhaps we should have a
lav and galley up front, with no access in-flight. Maybe designed such that
the only cockpit door is from the outside. A bit extreme, but denial of
access could stop some situations."
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One thing is to wake up those folks doing the carry-on x-ray.
After hearing that the hijackers used box knives and plastic knives I checked my briefcase: amoung the contents: Swiss army knife with 5cm blade(kinda sharp) one of those disposable knives with the snap off blades with about 10cm of VERY sharp blade left. (tools of the trade, leather goods. From the sound of it I am at least as well armed as the hijackers.
Now, what's scary is in the past month, carrying these two objects, I've been through security at LAX,TPE,HKG,BKK,CAN, and not once even been challenged by security. Oh yeah, they checked at one airport to make sure my cellphone was real.
Television here said if they weren't doing airport security, these people would be flippin' burgers at McDonalds. When I heard that statement last night, I thought it was rather mean and crude. Now to think of it, I'm not so sure.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: JetAgeHobo ]
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: JetAgeHobo ]
After hearing that the hijackers used box knives and plastic knives I checked my briefcase: amoung the contents: Swiss army knife with 5cm blade(kinda sharp) one of those disposable knives with the snap off blades with about 10cm of VERY sharp blade left. (tools of the trade, leather goods. From the sound of it I am at least as well armed as the hijackers.
Now, what's scary is in the past month, carrying these two objects, I've been through security at LAX,TPE,HKG,BKK,CAN, and not once even been challenged by security. Oh yeah, they checked at one airport to make sure my cellphone was real.
Television here said if they weren't doing airport security, these people would be flippin' burgers at McDonalds. When I heard that statement last night, I thought it was rather mean and crude. Now to think of it, I'm not so sure.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: JetAgeHobo ]
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: JetAgeHobo ]
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Untill today, those items were not illegal on an aircraft.
Everyone always thought in terms of guns and explosives or flamibles when thinking of Hijack.
I had a pax break into the cockpit 2 years ago, and I have been thinking long and hard about it ever since. Even an unarmed man will be able to overpower a pilot who is strapped in at the controlls. I'm 5'7 and kinda out of shape. During the depositions in the above mentioned case, I had the biggest baddest manchester cop sit at the controlls of the A320 I was flying at the time and I got the better of him till he yelled uncle.
The skymarshals better be here to stay, because that is really the only chance, especially now that it has been demonstrated so vividly for the world just how easy it is. As a fringe benefit, federal skymarshals will make the prosecution of air rage simple.
In the long term, access to the cockpit needs to be from a seperate door with no connection at all to the main cabin.
Cheers
Wino
Everyone always thought in terms of guns and explosives or flamibles when thinking of Hijack.
I had a pax break into the cockpit 2 years ago, and I have been thinking long and hard about it ever since. Even an unarmed man will be able to overpower a pilot who is strapped in at the controlls. I'm 5'7 and kinda out of shape. During the depositions in the above mentioned case, I had the biggest baddest manchester cop sit at the controlls of the A320 I was flying at the time and I got the better of him till he yelled uncle.
The skymarshals better be here to stay, because that is really the only chance, especially now that it has been demonstrated so vividly for the world just how easy it is. As a fringe benefit, federal skymarshals will make the prosecution of air rage simple.
In the long term, access to the cockpit needs to be from a seperate door with no connection at all to the main cabin.
Cheers
Wino
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As a passenger and a member of the traveling public I might support an aircraft that was designed with a flight deck to be inaccessible in flight.
However, as a pilot, I'm not sure I would like to fly an airplane where I have no access to back of the aircraft (for whatever reason).
The idea certainly merits consideration.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: zerozero ]
However, as a pilot, I'm not sure I would like to fly an airplane where I have no access to back of the aircraft (for whatever reason).
The idea certainly merits consideration.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: zerozero ]
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Putting an armed skymarshal onto the A/C is putting a weapon into the cabin were there was never one to begin with. The intentions are good but it's not the answer. Aircraft security on the ground is paramount. What goes into that aircraft (food carts,reading materials, people) must be checked, re-checked, tripl-checked and quad-riple checked. Passanger profiles at booking times must be thouroughly checked by federal or local law-enforcement agencies.
There is so much more we can do to prevent these types of accidents without introducing armed personel to the A/C cabin.
There is so much more we can do to prevent these types of accidents without introducing armed personel to the A/C cabin.
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Apollo -
I think you mis-spoke. This was no accident. This was mass-murder. To a dedicated suicidal terrorist, the last line of defense will be an armed flightcrew up front behind a hardened door. There is no alternative. Arm the pilots and you give them a fighting chance after the rest of the system has failed.
Quadriple checks on everything and detailed background investigations on boarding pax are impractical in the depth I think you are suggesting. And when they have failed, what will you tell my widow and children - "Your husband was very brave but still shouldn't have had the right to defend his aircraft because he couldn't be trusted with lethal force?" The only thing I worry about with armed flightcrew is if they would keep their weapons in good operational condition, considering that they would virtually never get used.
You, sir, do not have to fly everyday under this demonstrated and deadly threat. I do.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
I think you mis-spoke. This was no accident. This was mass-murder. To a dedicated suicidal terrorist, the last line of defense will be an armed flightcrew up front behind a hardened door. There is no alternative. Arm the pilots and you give them a fighting chance after the rest of the system has failed.
Quadriple checks on everything and detailed background investigations on boarding pax are impractical in the depth I think you are suggesting. And when they have failed, what will you tell my widow and children - "Your husband was very brave but still shouldn't have had the right to defend his aircraft because he couldn't be trusted with lethal force?" The only thing I worry about with armed flightcrew is if they would keep their weapons in good operational condition, considering that they would virtually never get used.
You, sir, do not have to fly everyday under this demonstrated and deadly threat. I do.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
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Theres a lot that needs to be done. On a British Airways flight from Singapore to London not more that a couple of years ago, I (after asking a junior FA) was allowed to sit in the jump seat for take off, a couple of hours in flight, and for the landing. I noticed the flight deck door held loosely shut with a womens stocking wrapped around it. Beyond the jokes the flight crew shared with me, they explained that they did that so not to wake resting crew in the bunks when the door closed. On landing, the door flew open. I know that it is a bit more secure in the US, but even still, how in hell is a wafer thin door going to stop someone so determined to bring the aircraft down that he/she would take their life! I could be a psycho with a razor blade in my pocket. There was no consideration of this in the 15+ flights ive been able to get into the flight deck just by asking. The doors need to be replaced! I have no problem with some form of alternative security. Perhaps even recruit some flight attendants that have worked as security guards in the past. I personally think that there should be a locked flight deck door on all airlines. Look at BA last year, when some nut case tried to nose dive the aircraft. It happens every day. Lock the doors. Design a little hatch that flight attendants can pass meals and other items through, so that the door can stay shut for the whole flight unless absolutely necessary. Thats what I think anyway.
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I'm not a pilot - but as a business traveler, I spend as much time in the air as many who are.
The whole airport security thing has been a joke. The metal detector/xray's are manned by contract personnel that have little training and little paychecks.
I have PERSONALLY had several recent instances, when they were busy, that I walked thru the detector and it went off - yet I was not stopped or challenged. Regardless - the 'weapons' used by the hijackers wouldn't have alarmed Barney Fife.
Arming the crew is one of the answers. Shoot first...answer questions later...in the words of Crocadile Dundee: "That's no knife [boxcutter]...THIS is a knife [9mm]!"
Someone mentioned fingerprint scanners...I would suggest an even easier solution (not all 'known' terrorists have prints on file)...as part of the 'enhanced' security precautions, eliminate all "Walk up" ticketing - reservations must be made several hours in advance. Then link the airline resv computers to the FBI/Secret Svc./Etc. Require Driver Lic/State ID numbers as part of the res process (or Passport #'s for international travel or non US Citizens). This link could alert officials to potential/known terrorists or other dangerous people. They could then be waiting for them.
The airlines would probably like this, too - they would have more info, and it would entice more travelers to join their Frequent Flyer Programs. (As a member of many programs, including "Platinum" and "Million Mile" status, several airlines have a TON of info on me - including cell phone numbers, email, etc)
There is one other (little known) technology that could be utilized - many large casinos use 'face recognition' software to identify known casino cheats...let's make THIS part of the metal detector/xray stop!
I'm not looking forward to getting back in the air soon...I'm frankly a little scared...but I'm also PISSED! The days of George W's dad's 'kindler, gentler' attitude are over!
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: FreqyFlyer ]
The whole airport security thing has been a joke. The metal detector/xray's are manned by contract personnel that have little training and little paychecks.
I have PERSONALLY had several recent instances, when they were busy, that I walked thru the detector and it went off - yet I was not stopped or challenged. Regardless - the 'weapons' used by the hijackers wouldn't have alarmed Barney Fife.
Arming the crew is one of the answers. Shoot first...answer questions later...in the words of Crocadile Dundee: "That's no knife [boxcutter]...THIS is a knife [9mm]!"
Someone mentioned fingerprint scanners...I would suggest an even easier solution (not all 'known' terrorists have prints on file)...as part of the 'enhanced' security precautions, eliminate all "Walk up" ticketing - reservations must be made several hours in advance. Then link the airline resv computers to the FBI/Secret Svc./Etc. Require Driver Lic/State ID numbers as part of the res process (or Passport #'s for international travel or non US Citizens). This link could alert officials to potential/known terrorists or other dangerous people. They could then be waiting for them.
The airlines would probably like this, too - they would have more info, and it would entice more travelers to join their Frequent Flyer Programs. (As a member of many programs, including "Platinum" and "Million Mile" status, several airlines have a TON of info on me - including cell phone numbers, email, etc)
There is one other (little known) technology that could be utilized - many large casinos use 'face recognition' software to identify known casino cheats...let's make THIS part of the metal detector/xray stop!
I'm not looking forward to getting back in the air soon...I'm frankly a little scared...but I'm also PISSED! The days of George W's dad's 'kindler, gentler' attitude are over!
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: FreqyFlyer ]
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If I recall corectly, the last time somebody tried to hijack a Royal Jordanian Airbus the guy's been shot down by a skymarshal (during cruise).
I'm glad this guy didn't do his homework before the flight, and also that the marshal knew how to use his weapon !
I'm glad this guy didn't do his homework before the flight, and also that the marshal knew how to use his weapon !