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Pilot shortage - myth or reality?

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Pilot shortage - myth or reality?

Old 17th Jun 2019, 07:51
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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There's no pilot shortage

Totally crap. Projections and surveys only show what Airbus and Boeing want to show. So many pilots unemployed at the moment. Many of them with experience on jet. It is totally sufficient to keep the rates for new pilots adjusted for short term demands and older pilots that retire.
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Old 18th Jun 2019, 04:24
  #142 (permalink)  
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One data point: there is an instructor shortage at flight schools in Canada, to the point that they don't have enough to do ab initio training. Instructors are getting hired up by the likes of Jazz.
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Old 18th Jun 2019, 12:37
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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So many pilots unemployed at the moment. Many of them with experience on jet.
Interesting.... The only people we find are people that are rejected for a reason or have been rejected by us.. We had to support an airline with crew and only got people with medical issues, "interesting" CV's, crap IFR skills in the sim, non existent CRM skills, people who lied about their hours, people flown with certain eastern european P2F airlines who were needed more untraining than training, etc... Can you please tell me where these "MANY" are hiding?

If you are unemployed in the current market there is generally a reason for it... Either do something about it or maybe start another career.. If you can't find a job now you will definitely not find a job when the next recession hits. Sorry
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Old 18th Jun 2019, 13:20
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Global_Global View Post

If you are unemployed in the current market there is generally a reason for it... Either do something about it or maybe start another career.. If you can't find a job now you will definitely not find a job when the next recession hits. Sorry
Hit the nail on the head.

CP
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Old 18th Jun 2019, 14:23
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KT1988 View Post
But its impossible to understand how the airlines choose who they call and when. For most getting the call was harder to achieve than passing the actual assessment.
KT,

Yes, this is apparently a universal lament. I can't explain what appears to be irrational except to guess that there must still be pervasive subjectivity in this process despite all the claims that infallible HR "science" has been applied at every step.

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Old 23rd Jun 2019, 22:41
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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I retired recently from an air carrier. I am flying, part time, in a CJ4 and a King Air. I am offered jobs every week, as are most of my friends. Perhaps I am in an unusually busy market (SoCal), but Im telling you, pilots, including young pilots, are moving up.
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Old 28th Jun 2019, 09:47
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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I recently turned down overtime because the company wouldn't pay me for travelling on my day off. Only for the duty itself. Until yesterday morning the flight was uncrewed. They found some mug to do it in the end. An eastern European for whom 300 for working two days was more than enough. As a western European, I just paid an eastern European labourer about 300 for two days work. Cash in hand and I can bet you he isn't going to pay a penny in tax on it. The reality of eastern European integration into aviation has come home to roost. We've been slaughtered especially in the UK. There's no shortage except in the self-worth department.
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Old 28th Jun 2019, 09:58
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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That will take the company "on the way to possibly one day achieve the single-pilot operation target we are aiming at," she told CNBC at the Innovfest Unbound conference in Singapore.
Possibly, one day, maybe having consulted all the relevant stakeholders, circled the wagons, pushed the envelope, built the knowledge base, provided directional leadership...

All spin, helping to soothe the increasingly frayed nerves of HR/IR 'managers' in airlines the world over, as the reality of a pilot shortage means the decades long IR games relied upon no longer work.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...cto/ar-AADx30d
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Old 28th Jun 2019, 12:02
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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@Global_Global: May I ask what is the definition of ""interesting" CV's" because all the other weak spots were obvious but I wondered what is an "interesting CV" that is reviewed as bad ? Also do airline employers wish only a CV with stuff related to flying or do they wish the whole story including schools, university, jobs before aviation etc. ?
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Old 28th Jun 2019, 13:00
  #150 (permalink)  
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""interesting" CV's" Where do I start? OK: Lay outs that are from the time DOS and matrix printers where top of the bill, data not matching stories, Medicals that were not up to date, schools that did not exist (!), people fired and with a negative reference, people with level 6 from France and Italy that could not type a readable cover letter in basic English, people that worked for 3 airlines in 7 to 8 months, people with hours not matching age, people that did not put anything about their hours on their aviation CV and the best one the CV that was 50% covered with a photo of a Tom Cruise look a like with 4 bars on his shoulders and only 250 hours on his CV

But again: if you don't have a job in the current market go out and spend some money on one of the interview training companies and / or make sure you stay current on your basic flying skills.. And maybe accept that you are not hired for a reason and stop blaming "the industry".. The fact that you past some exams doesnt mean you are "the right stuff" the airlines are looking for. Even in a market with ever lowering standards..
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Old 28th Jun 2019, 19:26
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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Interview with log book review. "These the original logbooks? Accurate times?" etc, etc. Candidate says yes. Interviewer - that's interesting - the 'original logbooks' were produced years after you starting logging 'real' time in them.

In the U.S., at the major airline level, the majority want ALL jobs after college. One major airline wants ALL jobs starting in high school. ALL jobs - flying or not flying related. As one candidate said "I didn't put it down because it was just a restaurant job during college." "What did you do there? For how long?" "I was the manager for the last two years." Wait a minute, you're 21-22 yrs old and you're the MANAGER of a large national chain restaurant in college?!?!!? That's impressive. No, it has nothing to do with flying but it shows a lot about drive, focus, maturity, etc, etc, at a young age.

While not a 'job' I recommended one candidate put down ALL his college activities down. It explained why he switched colleges and took longer to graduate - Div III football player. Home sick and transferred to a community college (poor and couldn't afford college). Worked at a local job. Got a Div I baseball offer. Play the first year as a walk on, if he's successful there'd be a scholarship the next year. So he scrambled to find the money....played, and before the next season the coach said "uh....about that scholarship....", so back to local community college he went. Eventually got his degree after he started flying. He had drive and didn't have much support ($$$) trying to pursue his goals. It's impressive talking to people who had a hard path to achieve their goals.
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Old 29th Jun 2019, 03:35
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Half true

North America there is a shortage. Asia is hit and miss. EU not.

This is partly due to the stronger economy in North America and Asia versus Europe, and the employment culture. It's absolutely pathetic that European pilots and citizens allow pilots to work under subcontracts from Ireland, self employment, etc. The American unions learned their lessons from subcontracting to regional airlines after 9/11 but it was never to the extreme you see in Europe now. The constant churn of bogus work contracts will continue to undermine the job market.

In Asia, they are limited by the experience level of the current pilot workforce. This will eventually work itself out, and it's probably an amazing time to be a millennial pilot in Asia. Airlines in East Asia who can afford to send students to North America to training will be fine, Southeast Asian airlines can always get expat captains and rich locals who's parents finance their training.

The North America market is still the strongest. Retirement numbers, union rules, and FAA limits for commerical pilots will keep pay going higher. We are already at the point where a CRJ captain in North America makes more than a 787 LCC pilot in Europe. And with more days off.
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Old 30th Jun 2019, 13:17
  #153 (permalink)  
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EU not
Err let's rephrase that: shortage the biggest in both US and Asia. In Europe there is a shortage but just smaller... All the good guys and girls are gone and we are now debating how low we want our standards to go.. That is the signal of a shortage to me
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Old 5th Jul 2019, 23:04
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Shortage is reality

And shortage means lack of good experienced pilots. Most young cadets lack the necessary skills required to command an aircraft.
Training is getting cheaper (see east European flight schools) but at the same time more extra modules like APS MCC, JOT or even self sponsored type ratings are required to land the first job. What the industry basically needs is a further consolidation. Then ticket prices get higher, salaries will increase and in the end the training will improve and will be provided in full by the employer again. What can be expected if tickets are still available for 10 bucks? Nothing! We have one of the most demanding and specialized jobs in the world and are paid less than a cab driver. I know a pizza chef who gets double the amount that my former coworkers get. And we're all captains. Sad but true. Think about that
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 04:32
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by av8sean View Post
North America there is a shortage. Asia is hit and miss. EU not.

This is partly due to the stronger economy in North America and Asia versus Europe, and the employment culture. It's absolutely pathetic that European pilots and citizens allow pilots to work under subcontracts from Ireland, self employment, etc. The American unions learned their lessons from subcontracting to regional airlines after 9/11 but it was never to the extreme you see in Europe now. The constant churn of bogus work contracts will continue to undermine the job market.

In Asia, they are limited by the experience level of the current pilot workforce. This will eventually work itself out, and it's probably an amazing time to be a millennial pilot in Asia. Airlines in East Asia who can afford to send students to North America to training will be fine, Southeast Asian airlines can always get expat captains and rich locals who's parents finance their training.

The North America market is still the strongest. Retirement numbers, union rules, and FAA limits for commerical pilots will keep pay going higher. We are already at the point where a CRJ captain in North America makes more than a 787 LCC pilot in Europe. And with more days off.

Really, so American regional pilots are not sleeping in crewrooms anymore because the pay is so bad ? Id be interested to know what your mythical CRJ captain makes
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 11:26
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Meester proach View Post
Id be interested to know what your mythical CRJ captain makes
US regional captain pay listed here:

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional


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Old 7th Jul 2019, 01:54
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Meester proach View Post



Really, so American regional pilots are not sleeping in crewrooms anymore because the pay is so bad ? Id be interested to know what your mythical CRJ captain makes
Senior captain at republic will easily make $150K, third year around $90K. Seen plenty of posts talking about making less than 10K/month in the EU on long haul as PIC.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 21:57
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Yes but direct entry captains, or newly upgraded captains, in a US regional does not make that sort of money the first few years. A long haul captain with Virgin, BA, KLM, Air France, LH, Virgin, Swiss etc etc makes a lot more than €10k / month. The ones making €10K / month are possibly more like Norwegian long haul or HiFly.

CP
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 22:04
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CaptainProp View Post
Yes but direct entry captains, or newly upgraded captains, in a US regional does not make that sort of money the first few years. A long haul captain with Virgin, BA, KLM, Air France, LH, Virgin, Swiss etc etc makes a lot more than 10k / month. The ones making 10K / month are possibly more like Norwegian long haul or HiFly.

CP


Originally Posted by av8sean View Post
North America there is a shortage. Asia is hit and miss. EU not.

The North America market is still the strongest. Retirement numbers, union rules, and FAA limits for commerical pilots will keep pay going higher. We are already at the point where a CRJ captain in North America makes more than a 787 LCC pilot in Europe. And with more days off.
​​​​​​​fillerfiller
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 11:53
  #160 (permalink)  
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Dear All,

Interesting discussion going on about the pilot shortage and their salaries. Just to add some fuel to the fire here is a quick observation: Eurowings, Aerlingus, LOT, even Ryanair have stopped their recruitments recently, while WizzAir and a bunch of other airlines (interestingly, all European) are reducing pace of recruitment. Do they predict approaching another financial crisis? Is it lack of passenger numbers growth at Europe? Is the pilot market so overloaded that the companies simply form a non-ending database of available pilots and call them whenever they are needed? It is a very interesting situation now in Europe...

Best regards,
vp89
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