LHR - AVA near miss over Cali, Colombia
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Colombia
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LHR - AVA near miss over Cali, Colombia
17/11/18 - Traffic diverting from Bogota to Cali lead to close call between LHR and AVA heavies.
The language barrier between a diverted Lufthansa flight and a Cali air traffic controller led to a confusing, and potentially dangerous situation. Luckily, another pilot on an Avianca Brazil flight was here to save the day.
Lost in translation: Lufthansa and Cali ATC face language barrier
The language barrier between a diverted Lufthansa flight and a Cali air traffic controller led to a confusing, and potentially dangerous situation. Luckily, another pilot on an Avianca Brazil flight was here to save the day.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: KMCO
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many factors involved. The main one for me were the many crossed transmissions due to the saturated sector and frequency. It certainly didn't help matters. Furthermore, Lufthansa not having a pertinent way point in their FMS also didn't help any. I don't know what the ATC staff compliment were and how many sectors they had open at the time, so it's difficult to judge. In my mind the sector and the controller were overloaded for a period of time.
It had nothing to do with a language barrier.
Waypoint "MANGA" was not in that particular database on that A346 due to limited resources of the FMS.
So just imagine yourself, after 12 hours with all that chatter on the frequency, punching "M-A-N-G-A" into the FMS, seeing it on your electronic map, but the FMS just not accepting the input, asking again for ATC to spell it, just in case you have misunderstood etc.
The second (audible male) controller figured it out and gave headings, to sort out the situation.
Waypoint "MANGA" was not in that particular database on that A346 due to limited resources of the FMS.
So just imagine yourself, after 12 hours with all that chatter on the frequency, punching "M-A-N-G-A" into the FMS, seeing it on your electronic map, but the FMS just not accepting the input, asking again for ATC to spell it, just in case you have misunderstood etc.
The second (audible male) controller figured it out and gave headings, to sort out the situation.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Colombia
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm somewhat confused by the relevance of the long flight flown by DLH before he got into that mess. Not really sure AVA9209 should have requested special treatment for Lufthansa because of that. There was no real language issue. Upon arrival at SKBO, DLH should have had the same reserve fuel as anyone else so that was not an issue either, not to mention that they surely had a backup crew.
The fact of the matter is that MANGA is a critical waypoint when approaching SKCL from the east as it is associated with ALT restrictions above 16.000 ft peaks. No modern aircraft should be anywhere near Cali with an outdated AIRAC.
Maybe the controller should have ordered radio silence and everyone hold indefinitely as instructed after receiving five or more estimate requests in short order. Fuel critical aircraft would have requested Priority. Brings back the chills from LMI2933. Lots to learn from this one...
The fact of the matter is that MANGA is a critical waypoint when approaching SKCL from the east as it is associated with ALT restrictions above 16.000 ft peaks. No modern aircraft should be anywhere near Cali with an outdated AIRAC.
Maybe the controller should have ordered radio silence and everyone hold indefinitely as instructed after receiving five or more estimate requests in short order. Fuel critical aircraft would have requested Priority. Brings back the chills from LMI2933. Lots to learn from this one...
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SIN
Age: 48
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm somewhat confused by the relevance of the long flight flown by DLH before he got into that mess. Not really sure AVA9209 should have requested special treatment for Lufthansa because of that. There was no real language issue. Upon arrival at SKBO, DLH should have had the same reserve fuel as anyone else so that was not an issue either, not to mention that they surely had a backup crew.
Lufthansa does not have a backup crew, LH542, with a block time of 11:45 would be three man, CP, SFO and FO
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Colombia
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for clearing that up. Guess fatigue was indeed a factor. Anyway, in the end they seem to have dialed in MANGA and manged to hold over the fix. Still think the Avianca pilot was a bit harsh with the controller.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC hands out waypoints left and right. Many are seldom used and thus should not be created in the first place. That in combination with a stone age IT structure (relatively speaking) create these problems. Storage is precious in old system. "My" aircraft runs on Windows 2000 with 386 processors and had an service entry date of 2004. Compare that to modern PCs/Systems. Getting spares for old IT is also an issue, btw.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC hands out waypoints left and right. Many are seldom used and thus should not be created in the first place.