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AFR 258 CDG-SGN back to CDG 01NOV

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AFR 258 CDG-SGN back to CDG 01NOV

Old 2nd Nov 2018, 09:15
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AFR 258 CDG-SGN back to CDG 01NOV


AFR258 flight from CDG to SGN (Ho Chi Minh City) on the 1st of November had to return to CDG after 3 hours in-flight because it was denied to fly over Russia (source French Media)
Take-off time was approx 1222 UTC and landing at CDG at 1750 UTC.

From French Radio "Europe 1" Site:

http://www.europe1.fr/international/...i-tour-3792008

Air France évoque un bug informatique. De son côté, Air France, que nous avons contacté, cherche également à comprendre ce qui a pu se passer. La compagnie avance un bug informatique en pleine saison été-hiver, où les catalogues de vols sont susceptibles de changer. Mais la seule certitude de cette affaire est finalement que lorsque la Russie dit non, c'est non.

Air France evokes a computer bug. For its part, Air France, which we contacted, also seeks to understand what may have happened. The company is reporting a computer bug in the peak summer-winter season, where flight catalogs are likely to change. But the only certainty of this case is finally that when Russia says no, it's no.

Last edited by Squawk_ident; 2nd Nov 2018 at 09:24. Reason: Quote from Europe 1 Radio Site
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Old 2nd Nov 2018, 09:26
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Not my field but according to BFMTV, it looks like either EASA or Air France had an out of date route planning catalogue.

AF258 returns to CDG
 
Old 2nd Nov 2018, 09:57
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On another Forum someone noticed that this flight never took this route before and this is correct.I have checked with FR24 and it always have been a more southern route.I think they will quickly revert to the old fashion...
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Old 2nd Nov 2018, 10:01
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Interesting. The Tuesday flight (first of the 3 x weekly service to operate since the change to the winter schedule) flew the normal routing over Georgia, passing just south of the Russian border.

Routing over Poland and Belarus seems rather circuitous, to say the least.

Edit: actually no, it isn't !
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Old 2nd Nov 2018, 16:14
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Rosaviation comment:

" Being in the airspace of Belarus, the crew of AF 258 was informed by the Russian provider of air navigation services - FSUE State Corporation for the Organization of Air Traffic Management in the Russian Federation (ATM Group) about the absence of permit. At the same time, the ATM Group reported on its readiness to promptly process the request and to ensure the flight of the aircraft with passengers could continue over the territory of Russia without delay. The aircraft crew thanked the controllers for offering assistance, but made an independent decision to stop the flight and not enter the airspace of the Russian Federation."
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Old 2nd Nov 2018, 21:08
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So whatever happened to the option for an aircraft in flight to re-file in the air... ??
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Old 2nd Nov 2018, 21:39
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Originally Posted by pappabagge
So whatever happened to the option for an aircraft in flight to re-file in the air... ??
They did! Back to CDG.

The Flight planning system should select the most fuel efficient route (notwithstanding no go areas). So another route around Russia would need extra fuel or a tech stop somewhere.
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Old 2nd Nov 2018, 21:42
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Good decision
Fuel considerations apart, would you fly through Russian airspace on a dodgy clearance?
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 20:34
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so apparently quite a few airlines are having to limit their overflight of Iran due to T&?!P’s new sanctions. And the routes through Turkmenabat are at full capacity. in consequence flights to SE Asia will have to fly through Russia. Hence the routings through Russia (North of the Himalayas).
I didn’t understand that the US’s sanctions on Iran could impact the overflight of Iran, but it seems to be the case
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 22:15
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Originally Posted by airseb
I didn’t understand that the US’s sanctions on Iran could impact the overflight of Iran, but it seems to be the case
At a guess, overflying Iran requires paying overflight fee to the Iranian government, which the US would claim is trading with the enemy in violation of US sanctions.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 22:41
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Not the first one to discover a Russian permit issue enroute. And not the first one to turn back.
Take that Rosaviation offer of providing assistance to continue with a grain of salt..
And they already made two orbits, this would have set them back for 15 minutes of fuel already; no use of hanging around longer.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 22:55
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Originally Posted by airseb
so apparently quite a few airlines are having to limit their overflight of Iran due to T&?!P’s new sanctions. And the routes through Turkmenabat are at full capacity. in consequence flights to SE Asia will have to fly through Russia. Hence the routings through Russia (North of the Himalayas).
I didn’t understand that the US’s sanctions on Iran could impact the overflight of Iran, but it seems to be the case
​​​​​​

The new sanctions don’t even go into effect until 5 Nov. They have no effect on overflights. The failure of AF to secure proper overflight permits is not a Trump issue. Russian overflight permits at most companies are included in preflight information to allow flight crews to cross check.
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Old 4th Nov 2018, 13:06
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OldLurker said
At a guess, overflying Iran requires paying overflight fee to the Iranian government, which the US would claim is trading with the enemy in violation of US sanctions.
IMHO all States overflying needs an approval by local authorities and taxes are levied.
About Russia, on the French Forum "crash-aeriens.com", a contributor pointed-out the AF4001 case on the 26FEB 18. Approching the Ulannbaatar FIR it started to hold presumably for the same reasons than the AF258. It was then cleared to continue but because of the holding had to land at PRG for fuel. It was a flight bringing back athletes to Lyon from Seoul after the Olympic Games.
Aigle Azur also had problems before opening its ORY-PEK flight because the Russian Authorities were very reluctant to allow the airline to fly over its territory. Aigle Azur opened PEK some weeks ago...
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...igle-azur.html
(In French)
I also remember that some years ago ANA had to make a stop at Moscow on its way to Tokyo from CDG because the Russian did not accept a direct flight over their territory. NH206 by memory.

Sailvi767 said
The new sanctions don’t even go into effect until 5 Nov. They have no effect on overflights. The failure of AF to secure proper overflight permits is not a Trump issue. Russian overflight permits at most companies are included in preflight information to allow flight crews to cross check.
I agree. Either the Flight Plan was duly endorsed before the operating flight especially with this kind of overflying or someone clicked the buttons not really knowing what he was doing, or was proud to innovate and nobody came to pat his shoulder to say: have a break...

Last edited by Squawk_ident; 4th Nov 2018 at 13:07. Reason: Typo
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