4th Aug 2018 Junkers JU52 crashed in Switzerland
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Originally Posted by Alber Ratman
JU52s were never build or regulated to CS25. Yes the company has a Swiss AOC as the aircraft must have done so to carry pax.
There will inevitably come a day when the last piston airliner will have to be shut down for the last time and reduced to a static display, but I hope that this day is still well in the future.
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I don't know if the two-day trip schedule was a one-off, compared to normal operations which I suppose will be hourly or day trips. A cancellation isn't a big thing then. But here we have a group that is more or less expecting to fly home in time (at least the day that was planned). It must have put extra pressure on the guys up front, to at least give it a try.
These operators/organisations/clubs need cash flow to continue flying their expensive planes.
Here in our country an organization that operates a Catalina has been forced to stop due to lack of cash flow. Because last Year it was involved in a minor incident (stuck nose gear) and the resulting time it took to get repairs done, took out the best part of the flying season, depleting the little reserves that were there.
Many of these clubs lack the deep pockets like Red Bull has to keep everything in mint condition and don't care if a show or trip gets cancelled.
These operators/organisations/clubs need cash flow to continue flying their expensive planes.
Here in our country an organization that operates a Catalina has been forced to stop due to lack of cash flow. Because last Year it was involved in a minor incident (stuck nose gear) and the resulting time it took to get repairs done, took out the best part of the flying season, depleting the little reserves that were there.
Many of these clubs lack the deep pockets like Red Bull has to keep everything in mint condition and don't care if a show or trip gets cancelled.
There is no need for engine trouble to cause such an accident. This aircraft flew at or above its service ceiling: fully loaded, ISA +17 Celsius. Crash site is at approx. 8500 ft plus the 500 ft you should clear any surface plus nearly +3000 ft density altitude for temperature above ISA adds up to about 12'000 ft density altitude. The BMW radials fitted have much less power than the former Luftwaffe engines (500+ instead of 800+ HP) and are normaly aspirated. Which means that the aircraft was cruising at max. power (which is maybe half of its sea level power) and somewhere near 1.3 times above its rather low stall speed.
Did you ever cross mountains in a piston engine? The Ju52 will go up to 18000 feet outperforming a typical C172 and any Homo sapiens not on oxygen. 12.000 feet density altitude is nothing special. You can go to 14.000 feet without oxygen for half an hour. You will feel a bit tired and that improves with every 500 feet you go down.
Here two experienced captains where faced with a problem they could not solve and that was definitely not a density altitude problem. It might be one additional hole in the cheese but not the definite one for the outcome.
From what I see on the terrain, they could have maid it to an emergency landing even without any power. So there is more to the story.
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Ref. that Swiss TV picture(screenshot)
It appears unrelated to the crashed flight!! The Text attached to that TV picture only says: One of the last pictures of the flight. Neither does it state wether that JU52? is actually HB-HOT, nor does it state the date when the picture was taken. Good guess it is just the normal journo crap - Mr. T would call it "fake news"
Canton Glarus is north of the crash site. Enter "Chamm, Glarus" on Google Earth (Maps) and it will show a mountainous place to the north of the accident site. It´s nowhere said or written that they crossed that ridge next to "Martinsloch" and returned crossing that ridge again !!
It appears unrelated to the crashed flight!! The Text attached to that TV picture only says: One of the last pictures of the flight. Neither does it state wether that JU52? is actually HB-HOT, nor does it state the date when the picture was taken. Good guess it is just the normal journo crap - Mr. T would call it "fake news"
Canton Glarus is north of the crash site. Enter "Chamm, Glarus" on Google Earth (Maps) and it will show a mountainous place to the north of the accident site. It´s nowhere said or written that they crossed that ridge next to "Martinsloch" and returned crossing that ridge again !!
Complete rubbish.
Did you ever cross mountains in a piston engine? The Ju52 will go up to 18000 feet outperforming a typical C172 and any Homo sapiens not on oxygen. 12.000 feet density altitude is nothing special. You can go to 14.000 feet without oxygen for half an hour. You will feel a bit tired and that improves with every 500 feet you go down.
Here two experienced captains where faced with a problem they could not solve and that was definitely not a density altitude problem. It might be one additional hole in the cheese but not the definite one for the outcome.
From what I see on the terrain, they could have maid it to an emergency landing even without any power. So there is more to the story.
Let's see what the accident investigation has to say about this.
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Ref. that Swiss TV picture(screenshot)
It appears unrelated to the crashed flight!! The Text attached to that TV picture only says: One of the last pictures of the flight. Neither does it state wether that JU52? is actually HB-HOT, nor does it state the date when the picture was taken. Good guess it is just the normal journo crap - Mr. T would call it "fake news"
Canton Glarus is north of the crash site. Enter "Chamm, Glarus" on Google Earth (Maps) and it will show a mountainous place to the north of the accident site. It´s nowhere said or written that they crossed that ridge next to "Martinsloch" and returned crossing that ridge again !!
It appears unrelated to the crashed flight!! The Text attached to that TV picture only says: One of the last pictures of the flight. Neither does it state wether that JU52? is actually HB-HOT, nor does it state the date when the picture was taken. Good guess it is just the normal journo crap - Mr. T would call it "fake news"
Canton Glarus is north of the crash site. Enter "Chamm, Glarus" on Google Earth (Maps) and it will show a mountainous place to the north of the accident site. It´s nowhere said or written that they crossed that ridge next to "Martinsloch" and returned crossing that ridge again !!
That doesn’t mean it’s the same as “fake news”
Last edited by zero/zero; 6th Aug 2018 at 13:24.
N4790P
The question is one of informed consent. The commercial air transport industry is exceptionally safe (considering what it does) however a lot of those safety advances don't apply to a 1930s built aeroplane. Do the public truly understand the difference between a modern airliner with certificated 16G passenger seat assembly and one that isn't? Or a performance A aeroplane with whatever a JU-52 is?
You may leave the decision up to the individual, but what if they are not capable of making that decision?
You may leave the decision up to the individual, but what if they are not capable of making that decision?
I am aware of the standard, just doubt it is practical since they are happy with standard weights in such tests.
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How many can and do survive 16G seat loads.
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There is a very nice video of sister plane flying through the beautiful Swiss landscape on Youtube under title "Junkers Ju 52 -> Tante JU Spectacular Flight through Swiss Alps from Gstaad"
(I can't post URL's yet).
May they rest in peace.
(I can't post URL's yet).
May they rest in peace.
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thanks for the kind help. However I intentially used the word "unrelated". The outgoing flight from Dübendorf to Locarno went via the Gotthard Massiv.The Gotthard routing is well west of the Chamm mountain area in Kanton Glarus. The return flight followed a more easterly rounting to cover the "highlight" Martinsloch, the hole in the rockwall of that ridge they wanted to cross. The accident site is still within the limits of Kanton Graubünden / Grisons .
So neither on the flight on August, 3 nor on the return flight on August,4 HB-HOT could be spotted in the Chamm Mountain Area before the accident.
In my opinion, what happened here is a journalist in a great hurry wanted to sell his story first, grabbed whatever picture or video of a JU 52 flying in the mountains and added it to his/her report.
I use to call such an approach to the facts of a story "Journos crap" and as side kick to the plague of the "Twitter King" in the US I have named it like he would do.
Just for info!!
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Thank you for the flowers, dear EDLB. Yes, I did cross the mountains many time on a piston engine. Thats why I consider myself as qualified to talk "rubbish". What's really rubbish is the ceiling cited in Wikipedia, at least for the JU-52 operated nowadays.
Let's see what the accident investigation has to say about this.
Let's see what the accident investigation has to say about this.