SWA1380 - diversion to KPHL after engine event
tdracer: >"I've seen no evidence that the fan blade was uncontained"
The NTSB has stated that fan blade 13 is missing. That's not simply missing from the hub, it's gone and they cannot find it. To me, that's uncontained.
Did you mean "no evidence of high kinetic energy blade departure"?
The NTSB has stated that fan blade 13 is missing. That's not simply missing from the hub, it's gone and they cannot find it. To me, that's uncontained.
Did you mean "no evidence of high kinetic energy blade departure"?
So, a turbine blade coming out the side of the engine is an uncontained failure, a broken turbine blade that exits out the tailpipe isn't.
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tdracer: >"I've seen no evidence that the fan blade was uncontained"
The NTSB has stated that fan blade 13 is missing. That's not simply missing from the hub, it's gone and they cannot find it. To me, that's uncontained.
Did you mean "no evidence of high kinetic energy blade departure"?
The NTSB has stated that fan blade 13 is missing. That's not simply missing from the hub, it's gone and they cannot find it. To me, that's uncontained.
Did you mean "no evidence of high kinetic energy blade departure"?
"Fan blade separated in 2 places.
5 p.m.: There was a fatigue fracture where the #13 fan blade would have gone into the engine. That was the initiating event that caused a secondary failure of the jet engine."
News media is concentrating on the fact the plane landed at higher than normal speeds and the entire briefing isn't on youtube yet.
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During the NTSB briefing that I watched a little while ago, the Chairman stated that they had the lower 1/3 of the blade. After the blade was liberated it fractured again and the outer 2/3 rds is missing.
"Fan blade separated in 2 places.
5 p.m.: There was a fatigue fracture where the #13 fan blade would have gone into the engine. That was the initiating event that caused a secondary failure of the jet engine."
News media is concentrating on the fact the plane landed at higher than normal speeds and the entire briefing isn't on youtube yet.
"Fan blade separated in 2 places.
5 p.m.: There was a fatigue fracture where the #13 fan blade would have gone into the engine. That was the initiating event that caused a secondary failure of the jet engine."
News media is concentrating on the fact the plane landed at higher than normal speeds and the entire briefing isn't on youtube yet.
The NYTimes is quoting Sumwalt in today's briefing as saying that a fan blade was missing from the No. 2 engine as well.
...and that statement has since disappeared from the on-line edition of the Times.
Last edited by chucko; 19th Apr 2018 at 02:11.
Matt48, well said.
For us, this would be similar to studying the escape routes of the hotels we stay at on overnights. One day it might save your life.
As for the mystery blade, looking at the remaining fan, my guess is it went out the front or through the inlet cowl. There seems to be very little damage to the remaining fan. One adjacent blade bent? The previous incident showed massive damage. Either the blade went forward or it slid cleanly between the remaining blades and out the back of the engine.
Something caused the cowl to self destruct. Blade, vibration, what ever, hopefully the investigators can learn what so it can be prevented in future.
As for the window, something hit it. Once again, I'll leave it to the investigators.
Finally, great job by the crew on a really bad day.
For us, this would be similar to studying the escape routes of the hotels we stay at on overnights. One day it might save your life.
As for the mystery blade, looking at the remaining fan, my guess is it went out the front or through the inlet cowl. There seems to be very little damage to the remaining fan. One adjacent blade bent? The previous incident showed massive damage. Either the blade went forward or it slid cleanly between the remaining blades and out the back of the engine.
Something caused the cowl to self destruct. Blade, vibration, what ever, hopefully the investigators can learn what so it can be prevented in future.
As for the window, something hit it. Once again, I'll leave it to the investigators.
Finally, great job by the crew on a really bad day.
Matt48, well said.
For us, this would be similar to studying the escape routes of the hotels we stay at on overnights. One day it might save your life.
As for the mystery blade, looking at the remaining fan, my guess is it went out the front or through the inlet cowl. There seems to be very little damage to the remaining fan. One adjacent blade bent? The previous incident showed massive damage. Either the blade went forward or it slid cleanly between the remaining blades and out the back of the engine.
Something caused the cowl to self destruct. Blade, vibration, what ever, hopefully the investigators can learn what so it can be prevented in future.
As for the window, something hit it. Once again, I'll leave it to the investigators.
Finally, great job by the crew on a really bad day.
For us, this would be similar to studying the escape routes of the hotels we stay at on overnights. One day it might save your life.
As for the mystery blade, looking at the remaining fan, my guess is it went out the front or through the inlet cowl. There seems to be very little damage to the remaining fan. One adjacent blade bent? The previous incident showed massive damage. Either the blade went forward or it slid cleanly between the remaining blades and out the back of the engine.
Something caused the cowl to self destruct. Blade, vibration, what ever, hopefully the investigators can learn what so it can be prevented in future.
As for the window, something hit it. Once again, I'll leave it to the investigators.
Finally, great job by the crew on a really bad day.
Many years ago during my commercial training i was shown a blade off video of a test engine where the impact of the blade against the fan case cause a small but dense component mounted on the outside of the engine to fly off at high speed much like a cueball hitting an 8ball. Slomo video shows the outside of the engine case flexing significantly durng the bladeoff test. Could this be a possibility?
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I think we've beaten this dead horse enough. A fan blade departed and bad things happened. The NTSB will tell us exactly what happened, and why.
While some passengers sobbed and screamed, others took off their oxygen masks and proceeded to rescue and apply first aid to the injured woman, that is my definition of 'hero'.
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Disc failure ?
An earlier post mentioned that while engines are designed to contain blade separation, engines are not designed to contain disc failure. As a SLF i would be grateful if someone will explain what are discs in an engine. A link to a diagram would be great. I googled it and could not find a diagram showing engine discs. I know this must be a very basic question for those in the know, but it would help us , SLF , to follow things. Thank you.
An earlier post mentioned that while engines are designed to contain blade separation, engines are not designed to contain disc failure. As a SLF i would be grateful if someone will explain what are discs in an engine. A link to a diagram would be great. I googled it and could not find a diagram showing engine discs. I know this must be a very basic question for those in the know, but it would help us , SLF , to follow things. Thank you.
The compressor and turbine discs are similar but smaller (some newer engines use a compressor 'spool' - a cylindrical piece that holds the compressor blades for multiple compressor stages, replacing several individual compressor discs). Since they are smaller, compressor/turbine discs have less mass than a fan disc, however the high pressure section of the engine spins far faster than the fan (upwards of 10,000 rpm - sometimes higher than 20,000 rpm depending on the engine) so they also have massive rotational energy.
A burst disc - with all it's energy - will go almost perfectly tangential to the axis of rotation (cert requirements give a +/- 10 degree cone for burst disc debris, vs. +/- 30 degrees for 'lower' energy debris such as blades.
Does that help? Teaching isn't my forte
Radio Procedures
Whilst the crew did a very good job just as they and all of us are trained to do I do think their R/T procedures were very lacking.
There were quite a few queries as to the status of the flight from ATC.
Why did the Capt. not simply give a mayday call as it was most appropriate. Maybe not initially but when she found what had happened there was still confusion with ATC as to the aircraft's status.
After listening to a lot of " Live ATC " on you tube it seems that in the USA the terms Pan or Mayday are hardly ever used and because of that there is a lot of verbal with ATC as to aircraft's status.
Is it not an International Standard to use Pan or Mayday?
Apparently not in the USA.
Anyway the crew , cabin crew and some pax did a very fine job so well done to them!
There were quite a few queries as to the status of the flight from ATC.
Why did the Capt. not simply give a mayday call as it was most appropriate. Maybe not initially but when she found what had happened there was still confusion with ATC as to the aircraft's status.
After listening to a lot of " Live ATC " on you tube it seems that in the USA the terms Pan or Mayday are hardly ever used and because of that there is a lot of verbal with ATC as to aircraft's status.
Is it not an International Standard to use Pan or Mayday?
Apparently not in the USA.
Anyway the crew , cabin crew and some pax did a very fine job so well done to them!
Mayday ?
M'aidez - Help me.
Yes, they certainly needed help, nearest available, ground support once down, ATC giving them an interrupted approach, but ... they achieved that anyway, and ..... we weren't there.
DaveReidUK has put it in perspective, they got their priorities right, or when in doubt ....Fly The Aeroplane.
M'aidez - Help me.
Yes, they certainly needed help, nearest available, ground support once down, ATC giving them an interrupted approach, but ... they achieved that anyway, and ..... we weren't there.
DaveReidUK has put it in perspective, they got their priorities right, or when in doubt ....Fly The Aeroplane.
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I think it's more of a culture difference. In the US you "declare an emergency", in the rest of the world it is a mayday. Like rcsa said in their (US) mindset mayday is the final chapter, ie you're going down.
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An earlier post mentioned that while engines are designed to contain blade separation, engines are not designed to contain disc failure. As a SLF i would be grateful if someone will explain what are discs in an engine. A link to a diagram would be great. I googled it and could not find a diagram showing engine discs. I know this must be a very basic question for those in the know, but it would help us , SLF , to follow things. Thank you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Components_of_jet_engines
The blades in the video are much smaller than the ones used on the large fan which failed on this flight. (scroll down to major components in wikipedia page to see this)
Echo other thoughts - incident handled extremely well by crew and PAX who went to assist. Thoughts with the family of the deceased lady. Terrible time for them.
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Yes MAYDAY would be the technically correct ICAO term (and yes it is also recommended in the AIM right after it describes the normal, more direct and informal way to communicate in a distress condition) but as mentioned it would be understood in the USA to imply that your situation is, to some degree, out of control. It is commonly understood that if a non-US carrier uses the term "MAYDAY" that they are saying the same thing that we mean by "declaring an emergency". It is also understood that "emergency" declaration means nothing outside of the USA, and that if we need priority handling elsewhere "MAYDAY" is the word to use.
However if lack of use of the word "MAYDAY" is the only criticism we can throw at this American domestic crew operating in American domestic airspace, let's just shut up and say good job.
Weren't there some people on here saying the same thing a couple days after the Miracle on the Hudson? Bet they were shocked when the CVR recording came out and Sully's "MAYDAY" was there after all!
Question from a non-pilot, feel free to move if it's the wrong forum.
I know there is a maximum single-engine height but assume that if an engine is lost, descent to this height would be a (relatively) gentle business, whereas an emergency descent due to loss of cabin pressure would be a much more rapid affair.
Would it be normal to tell ATC you were depressurised and descending rapidly, rather than simply that you were single-engined and descending?
No criticism intended - I've dealt with a few "holy sh#t" moments myself and after listening to the recording am reassured by the calm professionalism of crew, ATC and the emergency responders.
I know there is a maximum single-engine height but assume that if an engine is lost, descent to this height would be a (relatively) gentle business, whereas an emergency descent due to loss of cabin pressure would be a much more rapid affair.
Would it be normal to tell ATC you were depressurised and descending rapidly, rather than simply that you were single-engined and descending?
No criticism intended - I've dealt with a few "holy sh#t" moments myself and after listening to the recording am reassured by the calm professionalism of crew, ATC and the emergency responders.
but assume that if an engine is lost, descent to this height would be a (relatively) gentle business, whereas an emergency descent due to loss of cabin pressure would be a much more rapid affair.
As for comments about R/T calls ... having had a quick listen to the archived feeds provided by others earlier in the thread I personally had ended up assuming some of the early calls that one would perhaps have expected to have been made when this all unravelled approaching top of climb were missing from the record. Certainly some of the exchanges you can hear are remarkably low key and will be interesting to see the transcripts.
Last edited by wiggy; 19th Apr 2018 at 08:36.