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SWA1380 - diversion to KPHL after engine event

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SWA1380 - diversion to KPHL after engine event

Old 20th Apr 2018, 03:07
  #281 (permalink)  
 
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In my view The questions about blade behavior are way too technical for this kind of thread. The same questions and faulted assumptions keep popping up on multiple posts.

The blades, behavior once it has separated is governed by Newtoian physics and not by aerodynamic forces which are pittance compared to the Newton laws of motion. So put the blade air loads out of your mind.

For the blade breakup into multiple large pieces, it's extremely plastic at these impact strain rates and column buckling is taking place. The forward motion is due to sliding friction of the blade tip once it strikes the case.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 03:35
  #282 (permalink)  
 
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Aerodynamics follows Newtonian principles, even at high Mach numbers.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 03:40
  #283 (permalink)  
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The story of the pilot who calmly landed the Southwest Airlines flight
‘She has nerves of steel’: The story of the pilot who calmly landed the Southwest Airlines flight

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.e7e5f8314cff

The pilot’s voice was calm yet focused as her plane descended, telling air traffic control she had “149 souls” on board and was carrying 21,000 pounds — or about five hours’ worth — of fuel.

“Southwest 1380, we’re single engine,” said Capt. Tammie Jo Shults, a former fighter pilot with the U.S. Navy. “We have part of the aircraft missing, so we’re going to need to slow down a bit.” She asked for medical personnel to meet her aircraft on the runway. “We’ve got injured passengers.”

“Injured passengers, okay, and is your airplane physically on fire?” asked the air traffic controller, according to audio of the interaction.

“No, it’s not on fire, but part of it’s missing,” Shults said, pausing for a moment. “They said there’s a hole, and, uh, someone went out.”...

...In the midst of the chaos, Shults deftly guided the plane onto the runway, touching down at 190 mph, saving the lives of 148 people aboard and averting a far worse catastrophe...
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 04:36
  #284 (permalink)  
 
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Not a 'Fighter Pilot' A Naval Aviator
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 05:46
  #285 (permalink)  
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Per my company Flight Operations Manual:

The phrase “declaring an emergency” no longer appears in FAA Pilot/Controller Glossary or the FAA 7110. The only method appearing in FAA or ICAO guidance is to declare a distress situation is the use of the word “Mayday” repeated three times. Pilots are cautioned that the use of the phrase “declaring an emergency” is not in compliance with regulatory guidance. (Nov 2017)
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 05:53
  #286 (permalink)  
 
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If you already have the attention, it's just a waste of brain cycles and precious communication time.
Agree - If there's nowt to say, don't say it.

Disagree. Two engine inop approach on 727 for example.
But it wasn't. Apples and Oranges.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 06:27
  #287 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Thrust Augmentation View Post
No aviator or engineer (as will be obvious...), but the discussions on the trajectory of the errant blade & the differences between static testing & real world blade loss are quite interesting.
I think the main issue is that the blade (due to being weakened by the fatigue crack) started to bend and rotate forward and did not break away clean to an explosion, like during the test. How many degrees it rotated forward before failing is something that needs to be analysed and might mean we need to rethink containment requirements.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 06:42
  #288 (permalink)  
 
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Couple of things... the EASA AD not implemented by the FAA is a bit of a red herring. The effective date of that was only 2 weeks ago and operators have until 1st Jan 2019 to implement it, and it only affects certain PNs which may well change after the SB is embodied. I expect the FAA will now follow EASA’s lead but there’s nothing unusual about this situation. It does take time to inspect 15,000 7Bs globally operating 10 hours per day, which gives you some idea of its despatch reliability. Within that time probably a third of B737s would’ve been through C check which is an opportune time to carry it out.

Fan blades on the 7B also don’t have a finite scrap life (I believe only the Trent 700(?) is one of the few that does) and are replaced on condition after NDT/ultrasound/BSI findings.

If the engine is 10000 cycles since OH it probably is due a restoration soon, but that is nothing unusual (if SW operate 1.5 FH: 1 FC) You’d expect in the operating environment to double that and get up towards the limiter which is 20000.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 07:47
  #289 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Short answer is YES. There are some minor complications - for example you want to number the blades and put them all back in the exact same position (otherwise you'll foul up the fan balance), but the fan blades can be readily removed, inspected (probably eddy current), and replaced in a few hours.
Reading the EASA AD (which is 3 weeks old, still a bit faster than the FAA), the prescribed inspection within 9 months of effective date of the AD is ultrasonic inspection according to an SB, but blades which have previously passed an eddy-current inspection according to the "Engine Shop Manual" are considered "serviceable", too.

I won't be surprised if the 9 month compliance period will very soon be shortened substantially through an EAD, at least for engines with a long service life.


Bernd
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 07:58
  #290 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jugofpropwash View Post
Not an ATC or a pilot, but if someone tells me that half of their engines aren't working, and there's a hole in the plane large enough for someone to fall out out of it - I'm going to consider that an emergency, regardless of what precise terminology is or isn't used.
And nobody said it wasn't.

But regardless of whether or not that word (or the word "mayday") was used, the flight got all the attention required.

There's something to be said for internationally standardised phraseology, but in this case nothing important seemed to be amiss.


Bernd
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 09:02
  #291 (permalink)  
 
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If you just say "smoke" they will treat you like an emergency.
It's just a status that you need to divert from standard rules for a reason. If they know it they can assist you and clear the other traffic for you.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 10:03
  #292 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nuasea View Post
Surely with damaged engine cowlings, descend as quickly as possible but perhaps not at Max speed?
I believe this got covered a page or two back...

Anyhow the Boeing Flight Crew Training Manual (FCTM) for a bigger Boeing twin is quite explicit in stating that in the event of a rapid descent you descend at a target speed of Mmo or Vmo unless structural damage is suspected, in which case “limit air speed and avoid high manoeuvring loads”...I suspect the 737 FCTM might contain similar comment....
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 10:19
  #293 (permalink)  

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Surely with damaged engine cowlings, descend as quickly as possible but perhaps not at Max speed?
Assuming the B737 is like other Boeings the procedure for a Rapid Descent is to descend at VMO/MMO unless structural integrity is in doubt. How you determine structural integrity is an open question. I would suggest that if there is ANY doubt then limit airspeed.

Boeing tell us, I work as an instructor for Boeing in the UK, that with engine severe damage the vibration will be severe. It is not something we can replicate in the simulator because the amount of vibration would cause other problems apparently. We are assured that you will have no doubt that there is severe vibration!

During conversion and routine refresher training both Engine Severe Damage Separation and Depressurisation exercises are flown. Both events require prompt memory actions. What is unique(?) in this event was that both situations occurred either simultaneously or very close together. That puts a great onus on the crew to prioritise their actions which are made more difficult wearing an oxygen mask which, without doubt, makes communication between crew (sound of O2 through the intercom and restricted ability to look at your colleague directly, almost like wearing horse blinkers) more difficult.

It would have been a situation requiring excellent CRM in such a challenging situation.

It makes me cross in all the reporting that the reference is to 'the pilot'. Undoubtedly her co-pilot was an essential part of the operation to ensure a safe outcome.

With reference to the RT used it must be remembered that the USA has a slightly more laid back approach to RT than perhaps those of us in Europe. Listening to the transcripts there seemed to be no doubt that the seriousness of the situation was understood by all concerned. Had the crew thought otherwise they probably would have broadcast a Mayday call. Certain parts of the world I would say it would be essential!

Well done to all involved.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 10:34
  #294 (permalink)  
 
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Not a 'Fighter Pilot' A Naval Aviator

"Fighter Pilot" is a subset of Naval Aviator.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 11:31
  #295 (permalink)  
 
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Posted in today's NY Times:

To the Editor:

Re “Quiet Flight, Then a Blast and a Sudden Plunge” (front page, April 19):

Capt. Tammie Jo Shults, a former Navy pilot, did an outstanding job flying Southwest Airlines Flight 1380 to safety on Tuesday, but readers should know that all airline pilots train for these emergencies. Demonstrating the ability to fly with an engine failure is required for airline transport pilot certification.

Also, quick drops, although scary, do not mean a crash is inevitable. Planes that lose cabin pressure as Flight 1380 did must descend quickly to an altitude where people can breathe unassisted.

Finally, though Captain Shults has been rightly lauded, the co-pilot, Darren Ellisor, also deserves praise for his skill under pressure. Crews act as teams during emergencies. The co-pilot reads checklists, acts as a second set of hands and talks with air traffic control.

Flying is the safest method of transportation today. We shouldn’t take for granted the many people who make it so.

MARY CATHERINE LONGSHORE
JUPITER, FLA.

The writer is a licensed commercial pilot.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 11:47
  #296 (permalink)  
 
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Many moons ago, I, like many other readers of these fora, I am sure, had to learn swathes of the JSP 318. For our non-military and overseas friends, JSP 318 was the RAF's 'Miitary Flying Regulations'.

Of course, it was laden with definitions including those of PAN and MAYDAY, the definitions of both I shall undoubtedly carry with me to the grave.

MAYDAY - 'an aircraft is threatened with serious or imminent danger and is in need of immediate assistance'.

I would suggest that the flight in this scenario fitted the bill to the letter and a MAYDAY, irrespective of your location around the globe, would be an unambiguous call to make.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 12:44
  #297 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Short answer is YES. There are some minor complications - for example you want to number the blades and put them all back in the exact same position (otherwise you'll foul up the fan balance), but the fan blades can be readily removed, inspected (probably eddy current), and replaced in a few hours.
In fact its even more clever than that. When visiting BAs maintenance facility, i was shown what the do on a/c during a C check.
The blades are taken out and inspected an weighed, thats fed into a computer and it defines the optimal position for each blade being put back to achieve the best balance.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 13:27
  #298 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hoss183 View Post
In fact its even more clever than that. When visiting BAs maintenance facility, i was shown what the do on a/c during a C check.
The blades are taken out and inspected an weighed, thats fed into a computer and it defines the optimal position for each blade being put back to achieve the best balance.
The most important data the computer needs to know about each blade is not its weight, but its moment of inertia relative to the rotor axis, but to make a machine for that is straightforward.

And the proposed rulemaking concerning CFM56-7B fan blades (referenced here earlier) should give you an idea how quick and easy it is to inspect the blades. The estimated cost for the operator is a mere $170 per engine (2 work hours), which is nothing in aviation.

And I would assume that when you do these inspections, the easiest way is in fact to just number the blades and their position on the disk with a permanent felt-tip marker.


Bernd
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 13:29
  #299 (permalink)  
 
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I just noticed this phrase on another article about this possible EAD for engine blade check and realized that the airlines must keep track of cycles for each blade!

“The industry took no major issue with the 2017 proposal, though some airlines requested longer compliance times. They said the rule would affect more than 220 engines because airlines often swap blades between engines.“

I assume this is done to better balance the disk?

Also, what are the statistics on blades that have been found to have a discovered failure during a check? How many cycles did they have on them?

And finally, CFM and/or Boeing better get busy on some sort of analysis (simulation) on how these blade fragments go forward of the "containment ring".

Last edited by whitav8r; 20th Apr 2018 at 13:40.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 13:32
  #300 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Smilin_Ed View Post
"Fighter Pilot" is a subset of Naval Aviator.
Is it? Lots of USAF, RAF, IAF, Russia AF, etc etc folks are "fighter pilots." How many are Naval Aviators?

Last edited by KenV; 20th Apr 2018 at 14:00.
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