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fire on china southern

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fire on china southern

Old 26th Feb 2018, 20:22
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fire on china southern

Did the Cabin Crew forget that they have heaps of fire extinguishers? I know lithium is a problem, but what kind of on board safety procedures are proscribed. Rather QF or CX thank you!
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 22:19
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Reminds me of a flying school in Melbourne Australia a long time ago. It had two Piper Warriors. Their Operations Manual displayed this advice: 'If fire occurs in the cockpit do not use the fire extinguisher as it may prove toxic. Use a coat to smother any flames."
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 00:00
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That's two this month (February). The other was on an Aeroflot A320 - fortunately, on the ground. We are talking about a sort of 'C' size lithium battery that is re-charged from a laptop and then used to charge a cell-phone. I have two of them and have noted they get quite warm when charging a phone. If these errant devices had been in checked bags and the fire occurred in-flight, we would have had a catastrophic event along the lines of the Aug 19, 1980 Saudi L-10 fire where 301 people perished. I am surprised they are not on the list of banned items taken aboard aircraft.
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 04:57
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I once shorted a lithium battery when trying to split a camera battery pack apart.The cell went almost white hot in a few seconds. The power contained is many times that of a zinc carbon battery and needs to be dealt with carefully.
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 05:12
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Originally Posted by olddolley View Post
Did the Cabin Crew forget that they have heaps of fire extinguishers? I know lithium is a problem, but what kind of on board safety procedures are proscribed. Rather QF or CX thank you!!!
Any specifics about the incident you are referring to and the apparent inadequate response from flight crew ?
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 05:17
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just have a look in internet...the video went viral..
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 06:52
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Originally Posted by olddolley View Post
Did the Cabin Crew forget that they have heaps of fire extinguishers? I know lithium is a problem, but what kind of on board safety procedures are proscribed. Rather QF or CX thank you!!!
Hmmm.

On the contrary, that comment would be enough to stop me flying QF, if they have F/As who don't understand that water is in fact the recommended way to attack a Li-ion battery fire.

Extinguishment of Lithium Batteries
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 07:24
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Proscribed means forbidden. Did the original poster mean prescribed, I wonder?


Good link, by the way Dave, recommended reading for all! Water rules!
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 12:42
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At my company we had a laptop fire in a cockpit.... The laptop was in a book bag with a bottle of water... The plastic bottle melted and flooded the bag, extinguishing the fire.....
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 16:56
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Grrr

olddolley,

Out of interest, I looked up the video.


As shown in the FAA link that Dave Reid posted, the crew were doing exactly the right thing. You have to cool down a lithium battery that is on fire. An extinguisher won’t help.
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 20:56
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On the contrary, that comment would be enough to stop me flying QF, if they have F/As who don't understand that water is in fact the recommended way to attack a Li-ion battery fire.
Oh dear, here we go again..
Hope the Hosties at QF now more about it then Dave here.
Off course for cooling that battery you need liquids but to extinguish the flames first, best is halon.
So first the halon, then the water!

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...FO09013SUP.pdf
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 21:31
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Maybe what we are seeing is the closest person attacking the fire with the closest available means whilst a second crew member is on their way with an extinguisher?

From the video I've seen one can't ascertain much. No idea of the sequence or timeline of events can be gained.
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 21:47
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Li-ion batteries generate their own oxidizer when they burn - halon won't do squat since it works by displacing oxygen (which the burning battery doesn't need to keep burning). Water will cool the battery to the point it no longer produces it's own oxidizer at which time the fire will usually self-extinguish (if not, halon would then be appropriate).
Sounds like the China Southern crew did just fine...
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 21:58
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Originally Posted by golfyankeesierra View Post
Hope the Hosties at QF now more about it then Dave here.
Off course for cooling that battery you need liquids but to extinguish the flames first, best is halon.
Halon may or may not be more effective than water in initially knocking back a battery fire. Your link provides no evidence either way.

And since you're going to need water anyway to cool the battery, I'm not about to criticise a F/A who uses it to extinguish the flames.

There is a common misconception (not helped by the FUD spread by some extinguisher manufacturers) that Li-ion battery fires are Class D, where you wouldn't want to use water. That's not the case.
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 22:38
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The FAA link says that a lithium ion battery that overheats releases burning electrolyte. Halon will put out the electrolyte, as well as any surrounding materials it's ignited. Unless you cool the cell with water, the heat from the short circuit will likely reignite the electrolyte. But halon should at least shrink the flames, and may help make it more obvious where the water needs to go.
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Old 27th Feb 2018, 23:26
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How to ascertain that was a lithium battery fire when it was burning? She put the fire out real quick and deserve a pat on the shoulder.
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Old 28th Feb 2018, 02:12
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Given that Halon was banned by the US Gov't in 1994 I suspect that they wouldn't have one on board. Quote for a fire ext website about Halon.
Is Halon still legal?

Because Halon is a CFC, the production of Halon ceased on January 1, 1994, under the Clean Air Act. There is no cost-effective means of safely and effectively disposing of the Halon that has already been produced, therefore recycling and reusing the existing supply intelligently and responsibly to protect lives and property is the best solution.

The EPA recognizes that that Halon remains the most effective "clean" extinguishing agent available, despite its ozone depleting potential, and there are no federal or state regulations prohibiting the buying, selling or use of Halon extinguishers. All Halon available now is recycled so it is an environmentally responsible choice.
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Old 28th Feb 2018, 11:14
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Li-ion batteries generate their own oxidizer when they burn - halon won't do squat since it works by displacing oxygen (which the burning battery doesn't need to keep burning). Water will cool the battery to the point it no longer produces it's own oxidizer at which time the fire will usually self-extinguish (if not, halon would then be appropriate).
Sounds like the China Southern crew did just fine...
Halon does not displace oxygen, one of the reasons you will not suffocate in a ship's engine room if halon is released, unlike CO2.
Per
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Old 28th Feb 2018, 15:27
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Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner View Post
Halon does not displace oxygen, one of the reasons you will not suffocate in a ship's engine room if halon is released, unlike CO2.
Per
But you will instantly sound like Darth Vader (personal experience in computer room fire system acceptance test that 'misfired' )
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Old 1st Mar 2018, 01:59
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Well, the true checklists for all of this is contained in the ICAO DOC 9481

Emergency Response Guidance for Aircraft Incidents involving Dangerous Goods Ed 2017-2018
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