Another forest fire bomber crashes
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here's Conair's site
www.conair.ca
www.conair.ca
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There are two Martin Mars still operating based at Sproat Lake here on Vancouver Island.
They are operated by Flying Tankers Ltd. a group of forest companies. They almost shut them down last year, however they are flying again and have been to Alberta and as far as I know are due to go back there or to Sask.
I wouldn't be suprised for them to go to the U.S as they are capable of really beating a fire to death with 6000 pounds of foam / water per drop.
One of the best fire fighting machines however has to be the S64, they really proved their worth in Australia some months ago.
By the way a Super Cat will keep up with a CL 215 and can pick up in a higher x/wind. I have had the CL215 guys ask me to move to another lake because they could not handle the x/wind that the Cat could.
Cat Driver
They are operated by Flying Tankers Ltd. a group of forest companies. They almost shut them down last year, however they are flying again and have been to Alberta and as far as I know are due to go back there or to Sask.
I wouldn't be suprised for them to go to the U.S as they are capable of really beating a fire to death with 6000 pounds of foam / water per drop.
One of the best fire fighting machines however has to be the S64, they really proved their worth in Australia some months ago.
By the way a Super Cat will keep up with a CL 215 and can pick up in a higher x/wind. I have had the CL215 guys ask me to move to another lake because they could not handle the x/wind that the Cat could.
Cat Driver
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Contracting causes cost cuts
One of the problems the contractors in the USA face is dealing with the contracting procedures with the government agency. They are limited in what they can provide in maintenance by the amount designated in the proposal of the contract. If more mechanics are required in during a heavy season it is hard to get the funds to pay them. With the negociated bidding procedure operators have to budget their resources based on the previous few years accounts. The contracting system needs some repair to enable the operator to provide what is needed, when they need to do it.
As the system is today, the cost of buying new aircraft (ie, CL-414 or other new aircraft) is prohibitive. The bottom line is that operators can not operate in 2002 with a 1975 budget!!
NOTE: Chuck Ellsworth... I think the Mars can pack 7000gal or 60,000lbs of water instead of 6000 lbs. I may be worng! I love your part of the world up there!
As the system is today, the cost of buying new aircraft (ie, CL-414 or other new aircraft) is prohibitive. The bottom line is that operators can not operate in 2002 with a 1975 budget!!
NOTE: Chuck Ellsworth... I think the Mars can pack 7000gal or 60,000lbs of water instead of 6000 lbs. I may be worng! I love your part of the world up there!
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Hi Exneptune dr.
Yeh, my mistake, I meant 60,000 pounds of water. I was thinking Imperial gallons at ten pounds per. gal. and just screwed up when I typed it.
The Flying Fireman had two Neptunes but could not get them approved by Transport Canada as fire bombers so they were sold to the U.S.
Can you believe it , the Neptunes were ex Canadian Navy and we wanted to use them for forest fire supression.
These fu..in morons in TC wouldnt approve them, where do they find these idiots??
Cat Driver
Yeh, my mistake, I meant 60,000 pounds of water. I was thinking Imperial gallons at ten pounds per. gal. and just screwed up when I typed it.
The Flying Fireman had two Neptunes but could not get them approved by Transport Canada as fire bombers so they were sold to the U.S.
Can you believe it , the Neptunes were ex Canadian Navy and we wanted to use them for forest fire supression.
These fu..in morons in TC wouldnt approve them, where do they find these idiots??
Cat Driver
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
LA Times:
........The U.S. is unique in its dependence on commercial operators for aerial firefighting, a legacy of Depression-era efforts to support private business......
.......At the core of the debate is an arcane 1932 law that restricts activating federal personnel and resources until all commercially available firefighting aircraft have been used up......
.......Still, calls for modernizing the fleet have been growing, and some members of Congress have pushed local initiatives to help bolster federal programs.........
Last month, the California Air National Guard's 146th Airlift Wing in Ventura County, which is one of only four federal government units designated to help fight wildfires, received the first newly manufactured aircraft in its 80-year history.....two new C-130J Hercules cargo planes ...equipped to drop retardants on wildfires.
But the 146th, .... can be deployed only as a last resort because of the 1932 law. Irked lawmakers introduced legislation in Congress this week to permit the Forest Service to tap military aircraft without first exhausting the supply of commercial aircraft....
........The California Department of Forestry operates 23 Grumman S-2T and S-2A air tankers.................
........The U.S. is unique in its dependence on commercial operators for aerial firefighting, a legacy of Depression-era efforts to support private business......
.......At the core of the debate is an arcane 1932 law that restricts activating federal personnel and resources until all commercially available firefighting aircraft have been used up......
.......Still, calls for modernizing the fleet have been growing, and some members of Congress have pushed local initiatives to help bolster federal programs.........
Last month, the California Air National Guard's 146th Airlift Wing in Ventura County, which is one of only four federal government units designated to help fight wildfires, received the first newly manufactured aircraft in its 80-year history.....two new C-130J Hercules cargo planes ...equipped to drop retardants on wildfires.
But the 146th, .... can be deployed only as a last resort because of the 1932 law. Irked lawmakers introduced legislation in Congress this week to permit the Forest Service to tap military aircraft without first exhausting the supply of commercial aircraft....
........The California Department of Forestry operates 23 Grumman S-2T and S-2A air tankers.................
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While the 415s are more efficient as a scooper they have, in fact, been certified by the USDA Forest Service as meeting their land tanker requirements (fill within 45 seconds from memory).
Not sure if their initial cost ($16M?) is an arguement when you see the estimates of real estate & timber costs for any one of these fires. The crews, too, deserve the best equipment we can provide - it's a hard, skilled & risky job at the best without the possibility of airframe failure.
Maintenance can never cope with the sort of stress fatigue you get in low-level flying - the USAF completely rebuilt a C-140 Jetstar used by their Checker squadron and it was just as bad after less than 200 hours. Transport Canada has a stress recorder on their Flight Inspection aircraft and apply about a seven to one multiplier for some ops! Makes you think about the total time and equivalent time these aircraft really have.
Not sure if their initial cost ($16M?) is an arguement when you see the estimates of real estate & timber costs for any one of these fires. The crews, too, deserve the best equipment we can provide - it's a hard, skilled & risky job at the best without the possibility of airframe failure.
Maintenance can never cope with the sort of stress fatigue you get in low-level flying - the USAF completely rebuilt a C-140 Jetstar used by their Checker squadron and it was just as bad after less than 200 hours. Transport Canada has a stress recorder on their Flight Inspection aircraft and apply about a seven to one multiplier for some ops! Makes you think about the total time and equivalent time these aircraft really have.
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Exposing crews to all the risks associated with old or unsuitable equipment is almost certainly a national discrace! ........ I can compare it with the current practice in the European country that I live in ...... most of our school kids are Bused to school using machines typically 20 years old ...... I often see Tourists looking at them in amazement as they belch there way on there journeys at snail pace ...... I cant imagine what the structural strength or brakeing ability is compared to modern vehicles ....... I have no doubt that it will take a disaster to make the "Powers that be" wake up and do something about it ...... as for the U.S. Pilots, how many more will have to die before the problem is fixed?
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In relation to the discussion on the merits of converting aged warbirds into firefighters vs using CL415's you may be interested in reading this article from Wildfire News, which basically outlines the case for and against CL415 with examples from the California County of Los Angeles. Apparently, this is a topic of much controversy in the firefighting 'industry':
http://www.wildfirenews.com/fire/articles/cl415.html
http://www.wildfirenews.com/fire/articles/cl415.html
Last edited by knilaus; 21st Jul 2002 at 13:39.
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I took the time to read the article on the CL415.
Of all the comments in the very long article the most accurate and truthful are the statements by Al Hymer's.
The comments regarding open ocean water pickups are pure rubbish. ( the comments were not Al's )
Cat Driver
Of all the comments in the very long article the most accurate and truthful are the statements by Al Hymer's.
The comments regarding open ocean water pickups are pure rubbish. ( the comments were not Al's )
Cat Driver
Pukka PPRuNer!!
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Canadair CL-415
Canadair CL-415
....from 'Airliners.net'
Would it not be possible to fit these old a/c with Ejector seats for the crews? Or too much $$$$/too difficult?
Seems a rum deal for the blokes who have to fly 'em....
....from 'Airliners.net'
Would it not be possible to fit these old a/c with Ejector seats for the crews? Or too much $$$$/too difficult?
Seems a rum deal for the blokes who have to fly 'em....
Last edited by swashplate; 21st Jul 2002 at 16:09.
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I've sat on the holiday beaches of Greece and watched the guys flying the Canadairs drop down to refill in the bays and then go on up to where the fires are burning to drop their loads.
I have nothing but admiration for these guys and what they are doing.
I am not fully aquainted with what goes on in American aviation but in the good old corporate tradition of "the cheapest bidder always wins" I can see that there can be instances where old and seriousy deficient equipment is pushed into situations where it (the equipment) may be found wanting.
Given a company ethos like "There's a fire - let's go! - but let's invest as little as possible" - there is always some poor bastard who wants to take his chance, make a buck or two and turn a blind eye to safety and basic common sence - maybe like the two guys in this tragic instance
I have nothing but admiration for these guys and what they are doing.
I am not fully aquainted with what goes on in American aviation but in the good old corporate tradition of "the cheapest bidder always wins" I can see that there can be instances where old and seriousy deficient equipment is pushed into situations where it (the equipment) may be found wanting.
Given a company ethos like "There's a fire - let's go! - but let's invest as little as possible" - there is always some poor bastard who wants to take his chance, make a buck or two and turn a blind eye to safety and basic common sence - maybe like the two guys in this tragic instance
Last edited by Xeque; 21st Jul 2002 at 16:23.
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Bailout? OH NO!
As Murphy's law dictates.... Only at the worst possible time will anythnig happen. Bailing out over a fire would be a hard option for me to consider. Also where a plane comes apart like the last two, you don't have time to get out. G forces would prevent it. Take a look at some of the sky diving accidents. In the numerous engine failures, mechanical problems I have had, I was too busy trying to fly the plane to think of getting out. I had the flaps stick full down on a B-17 in a deep canyon one day. I got low enough over the river to count fish before we got them up and started gaining altitude. There have been several lives saved by crew jumping out, a c-119 with an engine fire in Alaska.
On the CL-414.....it is a good aircraft for certain areas. One of the problems I see is the fact that water is not available in a lot of fire areas. They would have to reload at a land base and with the size of the load they carry, this would not fit into thew USFS requirements. This is the reason the B-17, B-25, B-26 and etc. are no longer used on federal contracts.
I have seen them work in Alaska where to lake was almost on down wind to the fire. They were impressive to watch. One load hanging in the air and they were scooping another!
On the CL-414.....it is a good aircraft for certain areas. One of the problems I see is the fact that water is not available in a lot of fire areas. They would have to reload at a land base and with the size of the load they carry, this would not fit into thew USFS requirements. This is the reason the B-17, B-25, B-26 and etc. are no longer used on federal contracts.
I have seen them work in Alaska where to lake was almost on down wind to the fire. They were impressive to watch. One load hanging in the air and they were scooping another!
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Re Transport Canada's stress recorders on their flight check aircraft: A number of years ago they lost a flight check King Air when the wing fell off, so they are rightly concerned with structural fatigue.
AS far as the economics of new aircraft for contract firefighting and use of contractors vice government owned assets you can probably go through the arguments on both sides yourself. Doubt that the Forest Service has the cash at any one time to put on a contract to pay for new aircraft, and since they are specialist aircraft that can not be easily converted into hauling passengers or freight and after being fatigued and worked they have no residual economic value beyond $.10/pound the companies have no economic incentive either. Makes it hard to justify new aircraft.
There have to be bags and bags of old C-130s in various boneyards that have lots of airframe life remaining that could be economically converted and operated for a few seasons each, use up their remaining airframe hours before their date with the smelter. Would old Nord 262s, Shorts, and other over the hill passenger and cargo aircraft be useful? Not the FEDEX fleet of Flacons, of course.
AS far as the economics of new aircraft for contract firefighting and use of contractors vice government owned assets you can probably go through the arguments on both sides yourself. Doubt that the Forest Service has the cash at any one time to put on a contract to pay for new aircraft, and since they are specialist aircraft that can not be easily converted into hauling passengers or freight and after being fatigued and worked they have no residual economic value beyond $.10/pound the companies have no economic incentive either. Makes it hard to justify new aircraft.
There have to be bags and bags of old C-130s in various boneyards that have lots of airframe life remaining that could be economically converted and operated for a few seasons each, use up their remaining airframe hours before their date with the smelter. Would old Nord 262s, Shorts, and other over the hill passenger and cargo aircraft be useful? Not the FEDEX fleet of Flacons, of course.
