bmi pays pilot £62,000 compensation
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bmi breaching safety regulations
The following from the Nottingham rag:
BMI DROPS PILOT APPEAL
12:00 - 12 July 2002
An airline which was ordered to pay a pilot more than £62,000 after unfairly sacking him has dropped its appeal against the ruling.
Bmi British Midland was told by a Nottingham employment tribunal to pay Captain John Leslie £62,306. The company had sacked him when he refused to breach air safety regulations and fly four early shifts in a row.
Capt Leslie, who was based at East Midlands Airport, said: "I'm pleased that the company has finally accepted the decision of the tribunal."
The appeal was due to be heard at the Employment Appeals Tribunal in London on Monday but the firm backed down. BMI British Midland had initially been ordered to reinstate Capt Leslie.
However, the company refused to give the pilot his job back and instead he applied for compensation. It was during a further compensation hearing that the award was made.
BMI British Midland declined to comment.
BMI DROPS PILOT APPEAL
12:00 - 12 July 2002
An airline which was ordered to pay a pilot more than £62,000 after unfairly sacking him has dropped its appeal against the ruling.
Bmi British Midland was told by a Nottingham employment tribunal to pay Captain John Leslie £62,306. The company had sacked him when he refused to breach air safety regulations and fly four early shifts in a row.
Capt Leslie, who was based at East Midlands Airport, said: "I'm pleased that the company has finally accepted the decision of the tribunal."
The appeal was due to be heard at the Employment Appeals Tribunal in London on Monday but the firm backed down. BMI British Midland had initially been ordered to reinstate Capt Leslie.
However, the company refused to give the pilot his job back and instead he applied for compensation. It was during a further compensation hearing that the award was made.
BMI British Midland declined to comment.
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Four earlies in a row
I guess the unemployed Captain Leslie will be knocking on the door of Easyjet/ Go to seek employment and maintain his EMA base. (Along with the fact they are one of the few employers recruiting)
I`d personally pay money to see the look on his face when he sees his first roster and with a tear in his eye remembers the good old days of only four earlies in a row.
This tale is somewhat reminisent of the tale of the Robin which got rescued from the dung heap by the cat.
I`d personally pay money to see the look on his face when he sees his first roster and with a tear in his eye remembers the good old days of only four earlies in a row.
This tale is somewhat reminisent of the tale of the Robin which got rescued from the dung heap by the cat.
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QAR ASR, I am , in fact, the pilot concerned and the article doesn't quite give all the details; please bear in mind the incident occurred almost 2 years ago !
The 4 earlies were not just the problem; it actually went further than that and included amongst other things, a breach of scheduling regulations, lying about the existence of "ad-hoc agreements" to vary scheduling rules, breaches of human rights, the refusal to follow contracted disciplinary procedures, the refusal to follow ACAS disciplinary procedures, the refusal to acknowledge the validity of a CAA medical and the refusal to abide by the terms and conditions of my contract. If you are interested I do have the full decisions of the ET from the 3 separate hearings. Of particular note is the comment from the ET that " There had been no contributory conduct on Captain Leslie's behalf". I was completely exonerated by the Tribunal. bmi cannot say the same.
As to working more tha 5 earlies, the company I worked for immediately after leaving bmi did just that, however, the duties were all carried out within the rules of CAP 371 and I didn't, and don't, have a problem with that.
If anyone is interested in hearing the whole sorry tale I can provide them with the information;subject to Danny's approval the ET's decisons can be published on the forum as they are freely available in the public domain.
The matter has also been covered by Simon Keane at the Notts Evening Post and by John mitchell and Gary Newby at Carlton TV news. Additionally, I believe the Daily Mail or Mail on Sunday picked up on the report.
The 4 earlies were not just the problem; it actually went further than that and included amongst other things, a breach of scheduling regulations, lying about the existence of "ad-hoc agreements" to vary scheduling rules, breaches of human rights, the refusal to follow contracted disciplinary procedures, the refusal to follow ACAS disciplinary procedures, the refusal to acknowledge the validity of a CAA medical and the refusal to abide by the terms and conditions of my contract. If you are interested I do have the full decisions of the ET from the 3 separate hearings. Of particular note is the comment from the ET that " There had been no contributory conduct on Captain Leslie's behalf". I was completely exonerated by the Tribunal. bmi cannot say the same.
As to working more tha 5 earlies, the company I worked for immediately after leaving bmi did just that, however, the duties were all carried out within the rules of CAP 371 and I didn't, and don't, have a problem with that.
If anyone is interested in hearing the whole sorry tale I can provide them with the information;subject to Danny's approval the ET's decisons can be published on the forum as they are freely available in the public domain.
The matter has also been covered by Simon Keane at the Notts Evening Post and by John mitchell and Gary Newby at Carlton TV news. Additionally, I believe the Daily Mail or Mail on Sunday picked up on the report.
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Grote- do you have any comments ont he fact that BM refused to follow the Court's order to reinstate you knowing that they could do this and the ultimate compensation would not be excessive? It concerns me that companies can flout Court instructions like this knowing they can get away with it for not a lot of damage. It seems to me, although I don't know your details, that 60k is not a lot to compensate for the loss of an established career. We seem to have had at least one similar case in BA. Unfortunately that resulted sadly in the (in my opinion) very tragic stress related death of Captain Stuart Clapson. The whole sorry saga threw appalling light on the handling of disciplinaries within BA, something the several responsible individuals must live with.
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Notso Fantastic
You are absolutely correct and it was this point that I wanted someone else to note. Here you have a case where the company, bmi in this instance, has shown complete contempt for the court knowing that the outcome would be relatively cheap. Something has to change in the law to ensure that a company is forced to abide by the judgement of a court in such a case. Perhaps the new pro active BALPA organisation can add this to the already long list of items to be addressed.
You are absolutely correct and it was this point that I wanted someone else to note. Here you have a case where the company, bmi in this instance, has shown complete contempt for the court knowing that the outcome would be relatively cheap. Something has to change in the law to ensure that a company is forced to abide by the judgement of a court in such a case. Perhaps the new pro active BALPA organisation can add this to the already long list of items to be addressed.
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Hey Grote,
Pleased to see that you didn't back down and got justice. Would you be the same JL that I worked with in the RAF at EGXI in the mid 80s?
Pleased to see that you didn't back down and got justice. Would you be the same JL that I worked with in the RAF at EGXI in the mid 80s?
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grot. Glad to see you stuck to your guns and seen it through. I hope that your working again, with a company that sticks to the rules and agreements. So many seem to think they can flout the laws but it takes people like yourself to show them they are wrong. Well done and Good luck !
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Carruthers
Unless I've missed it, no-one has suggested bmi is in contempt of court.
The point made by flappless and Notso is that the maximum amount which a Tribunal can order a company to pay by way of compensation if it refuses to reinstate a successful employee is so small that it doesn't sufficiently compensate the employee for what he has lost, and does nothing to deter a company from refusing to comply with the decision. ie treating the Tribunal's decision with contempt.
The suggestion is that the law should be changed.
FL
Unless I've missed it, no-one has suggested bmi is in contempt of court.
The point made by flappless and Notso is that the maximum amount which a Tribunal can order a company to pay by way of compensation if it refuses to reinstate a successful employee is so small that it doesn't sufficiently compensate the employee for what he has lost, and does nothing to deter a company from refusing to comply with the decision. ie treating the Tribunal's decision with contempt.
The suggestion is that the law should be changed.
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 14th Jul 2002 at 17:13.
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I must admit that I meant that bmi where showing contempt for the law rather than suggesting that they where in contempt of court- sorry if my post read otherwise. Come to think of it though, why, if a judge has told the company to give a job back, are they not in contempt of court if they don't ? Any legal guys about ?
The saddest thing is that this ever got as far as an employment tribunal. The courts verdict reminds us that an airline Ops Manual and employment contract are legally binding.
Quite why sticking to the rules should even be an issue beats me. I take my hat off to Captain Leslie; a man of honour and integrity. I hope he finds a more respectful employer and a less pressured environment to work in.
From a general point of view this undermining of a Captains authority is worrying. Many skippers on this forum must have been in situations where they suspected the airline would call them to account. The thought comes to mind that the airline can sack you but the CAA can suspend your licence without which you cannot work. As has been shown neatly here sticking to the rules pays off.
Quite why sticking to the rules should even be an issue beats me. I take my hat off to Captain Leslie; a man of honour and integrity. I hope he finds a more respectful employer and a less pressured environment to work in.
From a general point of view this undermining of a Captains authority is worrying. Many skippers on this forum must have been in situations where they suspected the airline would call them to account. The thought comes to mind that the airline can sack you but the CAA can suspend your licence without which you cannot work. As has been shown neatly here sticking to the rules pays off.
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What is even more amazing here is that the managers involved have taken no responsibility whatsoever for what has happened, and how much it has cost the company.
Seems to me like costing the company £62000 is all in a days work for some of those at the top. Kinda makes a complete mockery of the whole idea of saving money. Just goes to show that a bmi manager can't change his spots. Nothing has changed in this company in the last 10 years. The faces change but nothing else does.
Seems to me like costing the company £62000 is all in a days work for some of those at the top. Kinda makes a complete mockery of the whole idea of saving money. Just goes to show that a bmi manager can't change his spots. Nothing has changed in this company in the last 10 years. The faces change but nothing else does.
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Richard Hill - ops director
John - have you read the top 10 British pilots list by Kate Hilpern?
Would you believe it includes Richard Hill?
I never agreed with your actions at BM - and still don't, but I admire you for standing up for what you believe. A better airline's scheduling department would never had lied the way bmi's has - ghost rostering . . . 100hours in 28 days . . . from the horse's mouth it's been illegal - i just wish the CAA had taken more interest.
Good luck in the future John.
Would you believe it includes Richard Hill?
I never agreed with your actions at BM - and still don't, but I admire you for standing up for what you believe. A better airline's scheduling department would never had lied the way bmi's has - ghost rostering . . . 100hours in 28 days . . . from the horse's mouth it's been illegal - i just wish the CAA had taken more interest.
Good luck in the future John.
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 15th Jul 2002 at 14:20.
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In reply to some of the questions: yes, I was at EGXI in the 80s.
I didnt get any support from BALPA other than in the initial stages from some of the people on the CC. New Road was singularly silent.
As to the rest of the incident, once Danny approves the posting of the ET decisions and exactly what happened I will be happy to let people know what happened.
The saddest thing about the entire episode is that the individuals who lied, were economical with the truth and just simply surrendered their integrity, still work, in some capacity, for bmi. Of equal interest, however, is that many of the people involved in the matter were themselves encouraged to seek further opportunities to develop their talents with other companies.
One of the lessons from the process is that if anyone becomes involved in any disciplinary process they need help and support from a colleague: I was fortunate in that I asked Captain Paddy Clarke to be my "prisoner's friend" and his advice and counsel was invaluable. I cannot thank Paddy enough for his resoulute support. I also was fortunate that Peter Rolfe's counsel was made freely available.
With that in mind I have available a guide to disciplinary porcedures; this is already available to bmi pilots through the BALPA CC. Whilst it was written with specific referernce to the bmi scheduling agreement and the contract of employment with bmi, it does, nevertheless, contain advice which can be adapted for any company, anywhere in the world, although, again, it is tailored for English Law.
I f anyone would like a copy, I can let Danny or one of the moderators have the document and for a modest donation to the Pprune Fund you could have a copy mailed to you.
May I recommend to every pilot employed by a UK airline the legal insurance scheme run by Alan Hill at www.alpl.com . Alan was a great source of support to me and has been in touch regularly.
Lastly, if ANY PILOT finds themselves involved in a disciplinary process and needs some advice or support please feel to to email me at [email protected] .
I didnt get any support from BALPA other than in the initial stages from some of the people on the CC. New Road was singularly silent.
As to the rest of the incident, once Danny approves the posting of the ET decisions and exactly what happened I will be happy to let people know what happened.
The saddest thing about the entire episode is that the individuals who lied, were economical with the truth and just simply surrendered their integrity, still work, in some capacity, for bmi. Of equal interest, however, is that many of the people involved in the matter were themselves encouraged to seek further opportunities to develop their talents with other companies.
One of the lessons from the process is that if anyone becomes involved in any disciplinary process they need help and support from a colleague: I was fortunate in that I asked Captain Paddy Clarke to be my "prisoner's friend" and his advice and counsel was invaluable. I cannot thank Paddy enough for his resoulute support. I also was fortunate that Peter Rolfe's counsel was made freely available.
With that in mind I have available a guide to disciplinary porcedures; this is already available to bmi pilots through the BALPA CC. Whilst it was written with specific referernce to the bmi scheduling agreement and the contract of employment with bmi, it does, nevertheless, contain advice which can be adapted for any company, anywhere in the world, although, again, it is tailored for English Law.
I f anyone would like a copy, I can let Danny or one of the moderators have the document and for a modest donation to the Pprune Fund you could have a copy mailed to you.
May I recommend to every pilot employed by a UK airline the legal insurance scheme run by Alan Hill at www.alpl.com . Alan was a great source of support to me and has been in touch regularly.
Lastly, if ANY PILOT finds themselves involved in a disciplinary process and needs some advice or support please feel to to email me at [email protected] .
Last edited by Grotehaasje; 14th Jul 2002 at 23:57.
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Mini Mums, the options I had were simple; I could call in sick or I could make a stand. I had asked on at least 8 occasions, including going as far as a Director, to have my schedule changed. The schedule was not a one off; I had again at least 6 duty periods scheduled which were in breach of CAP 371 and the AFS. I had asked BALPA and the CAA for advice and their interpretation of the regulations. The whole tale can be told in due course; additionally, there were subsidiary, co-lateral if you wish, issues which had occurred previously.
I would not, however, call Richard an **********; he was doing his job. Whether you, or I would do the job in the same way is open to debate and his competence as a manager is open to debate . As to his flying ability, Richard is a fine pilot, but not anywhere near good enough to be in the top 10 in my opinion.
I would not, however, call Richard an **********; he was doing his job. Whether you, or I would do the job in the same way is open to debate and his competence as a manager is open to debate . As to his flying ability, Richard is a fine pilot, but not anywhere near good enough to be in the top 10 in my opinion.
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Wig Wag, w.r.t. sticking to the Ops Manual.
A wise old FltOpsDir once told me to never forget that Ops Manuals are usually loosely worded in order to allow, if needs be, for the Captain to exercise maximum lattitude in his/her aeronautical deliberations ( err, normally to provide the best Commercial outcome ? ) but where however the primary purpose of the Manual is to protect the company's arse, not the pilots; Veritably damned if you do, and if you don't.
He then told me to know the OpsManual both inside out and backwards and forwards, and always ask yourself why certain things within it are written as they are - and what that really mean to you !
A wise old FltOpsDir once told me to never forget that Ops Manuals are usually loosely worded in order to allow, if needs be, for the Captain to exercise maximum lattitude in his/her aeronautical deliberations ( err, normally to provide the best Commercial outcome ? ) but where however the primary purpose of the Manual is to protect the company's arse, not the pilots; Veritably damned if you do, and if you don't.
He then told me to know the OpsManual both inside out and backwards and forwards, and always ask yourself why certain things within it are written as they are - and what that really mean to you !