"House OKs Bill to Arm Airline Pilots"
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Wino
I've just tried the link again and it does work in the end, but much more slowly than a few hours ago. I got the "too many people accessing this page" warning a few times. The power of Pprune?? Try www.avsec.com and clicking the interview on the menu page.
The wait is worth it - good interview and a very informative description of the 'big picture' if you read it with an open mind.
I've just tried the link again and it does work in the end, but much more slowly than a few hours ago. I got the "too many people accessing this page" warning a few times. The power of Pprune?? Try www.avsec.com and clicking the interview on the menu page.
The wait is worth it - good interview and a very informative description of the 'big picture' if you read it with an open mind.
Last edited by virgin; 15th Jul 2002 at 07:05.
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Defenceless Flight Deck
Considering the consequences of a successful suicide hijack I find it difficult to understand the mind set of the anti gun proponents. (whose arguments are mostly fatuous at best.)
Their argument for an undefended flight deck does however have 100% support -
From the terrorist groups.
This worries me.
*It should also worry the unarmed flight deck proponents.
Their argument for an undefended flight deck does however have 100% support -
From the terrorist groups.
This worries me.
*It should also worry the unarmed flight deck proponents.
Last edited by Capt. Crosswind; 15th Jul 2002 at 08:47.
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mattpilot
I have no problems with killing some one who is trying to take control of the aircraft and the status of them is in my mind is "to be stoped by eny means at my disposal" how ever this takes a big mental change of gear on the part of the flight crew and I think that a large number of flight crew are not up to that.
It is a big step to kill a human , I have never (thank god ) been in the position to have to make that decission but a guy that I know who has been in a war situation said that even he had to think twice about pulling the trigger the first time that he had the enemy in his sights.
This is from a man who is fully mentalty trained and prepaired to kill and who used guns every day of his working life , could we ask this from a twenty year old junior femail FO ?.
As I said in my last post I,m not anti gun on the flight deck but I have grave misgivings about them falling into the wrong hands following the crew being slow or unwilling to shoot.
It is a big step to kill a human , I have never (thank god ) been in the position to have to make that decission but a guy that I know who has been in a war situation said that even he had to think twice about pulling the trigger the first time that he had the enemy in his sights.
This is from a man who is fully mentalty trained and prepaired to kill and who used guns every day of his working life , could we ask this from a twenty year old junior femail FO ?.
As I said in my last post I,m not anti gun on the flight deck but I have grave misgivings about them falling into the wrong hands following the crew being slow or unwilling to shoot.
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I wonder if my chief pilot will allow me to refuse a flight if I find myself flying with a John Wayne wannabe who can't wait to show me how quickly he can field-strip and clean a Glock.
.....it's REAL easy. This gun's got a NEAT safety feature in the triggerBANG!!!!......
Great. Now we gotta dump fuel....
.....it's REAL easy. This gun's got a NEAT safety feature in the triggerBANG!!!!......
Great. Now we gotta dump fuel....
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ww 1 - I'm a 20,000 hour "John Wayne Type", who are you, a Barney Frank type?
Click on links for full report:
Thanks to all of you again from Captains Tracy Price (Chairman); Marc Feigenblatt (Vice Chairman); Bob Lambert (Webmaster and Membership); Joe Gennaro (Government Affairs) and Scott Lewis (Government Affairs). Each of us is personally grateful for your relentless support, encouragement, and faith.
APSA Web Site: http://www.secure-skies.org
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You'll want to read every word !!!!
APSA JULY ARMED PILOTS UPDATE
YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE MOST IMPORTANT UPDATE WE HAVE EVER SENT YOU.
We are now in the crucial final rounds of our fight to secure our cockpits. While we just scored an impressive victory over staunch opponents, much remains to be done. PLEASE read this carefully so that you understand where we-and our sworn enemies-are. If ever we needed strong grassroots support, now is that time. BEGIN BY GIVING THIS UPDATE ABSOLUTELY MAXIMUM EXPOSURE. Forward it to everyone in your address book, and ask them to do the same. Print it out and take it to work with you.
We are this close to victory; now is not the time for relaxing. If you need to skip to the Action Items, see the last page and pick up the phone.
TREMENDOUS APSA-LED VICTORY IN HOUSE!
This is HUGE. On Wednesday, July 10, the House of Representatives passed two crucial amendments to the weakened HR 4635 Bill by approximately a two-thirds majority. More importantly, the bill itself, with the Amendments, passed with a veto-proof three-quarters majority. Kudos and thanks aplenty go out to Representatives John Hostettler (R-IN) for his amendment and Peter DeFazio (D-OR), John Thune (R-SD), and Joe Barton (R-TX) for their joint amendment.
The week began much differently, with only a modicum of optimism. The Arming Pilots Against Terrorism bill, HR 4635, that began as a well-crafted attempt, mutated into a less-than-worthless compromise because of weak advocacy on the part of one group that was afraid of offending its pro-labor (and anti-gun) allies, and even admitted as much. The grisly details of this compromise are a story for another time (we promise). Fortunately, APSA and the Allied Pilots' Association (APA) stood in the gap. As of Monday, our allies barely hoped to get a couple of luke-warm amendments attached; we started to fear that our only remaining hope was in the Senate. Then APSA Chairman Tracy Price and Board Member Bob Lambert spent two long days visiting specific key Representatives along with APA CADC leadership Al Aitken and Rob Sproc, shoring up support for real amendments with teeth. These were probably the two most productive days spent by APSA activists. Backing them up were thousa
nds of you APSA members and millions of G. Gordon Liddy (www.liddyshow.us) listeners who jumped into the fight en masse. APSA and Liddy activists absolutely inundated the House with calls; and folks, that got their attention, and they let us know about it. Suddenly, the House came alive and Congressmen were fighting for the opportunity to floor amendments.
Click on links for full report:
Thanks to all of you again from Captains Tracy Price (Chairman); Marc Feigenblatt (Vice Chairman); Bob Lambert (Webmaster and Membership); Joe Gennaro (Government Affairs) and Scott Lewis (Government Affairs). Each of us is personally grateful for your relentless support, encouragement, and faith.
APSA Web Site: http://www.secure-skies.org
--
To unsubscribe/change profile:
http://www.emaillistfactory.com/x?u=7592452,$1$YNSOj$/xPv8DXXawT5smpGXqOnN1
To subscribe:
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Email list management by http://www.emaillistfactory.com
You'll want to read every word !!!!
APSA JULY ARMED PILOTS UPDATE
YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE MOST IMPORTANT UPDATE WE HAVE EVER SENT YOU.
We are now in the crucial final rounds of our fight to secure our cockpits. While we just scored an impressive victory over staunch opponents, much remains to be done. PLEASE read this carefully so that you understand where we-and our sworn enemies-are. If ever we needed strong grassroots support, now is that time. BEGIN BY GIVING THIS UPDATE ABSOLUTELY MAXIMUM EXPOSURE. Forward it to everyone in your address book, and ask them to do the same. Print it out and take it to work with you.
We are this close to victory; now is not the time for relaxing. If you need to skip to the Action Items, see the last page and pick up the phone.
TREMENDOUS APSA-LED VICTORY IN HOUSE!
This is HUGE. On Wednesday, July 10, the House of Representatives passed two crucial amendments to the weakened HR 4635 Bill by approximately a two-thirds majority. More importantly, the bill itself, with the Amendments, passed with a veto-proof three-quarters majority. Kudos and thanks aplenty go out to Representatives John Hostettler (R-IN) for his amendment and Peter DeFazio (D-OR), John Thune (R-SD), and Joe Barton (R-TX) for their joint amendment.
The week began much differently, with only a modicum of optimism. The Arming Pilots Against Terrorism bill, HR 4635, that began as a well-crafted attempt, mutated into a less-than-worthless compromise because of weak advocacy on the part of one group that was afraid of offending its pro-labor (and anti-gun) allies, and even admitted as much. The grisly details of this compromise are a story for another time (we promise). Fortunately, APSA and the Allied Pilots' Association (APA) stood in the gap. As of Monday, our allies barely hoped to get a couple of luke-warm amendments attached; we started to fear that our only remaining hope was in the Senate. Then APSA Chairman Tracy Price and Board Member Bob Lambert spent two long days visiting specific key Representatives along with APA CADC leadership Al Aitken and Rob Sproc, shoring up support for real amendments with teeth. These were probably the two most productive days spent by APSA activists. Backing them up were thousa
nds of you APSA members and millions of G. Gordon Liddy (www.liddyshow.us) listeners who jumped into the fight en masse. APSA and Liddy activists absolutely inundated the House with calls; and folks, that got their attention, and they let us know about it. Suddenly, the House came alive and Congressmen were fighting for the opportunity to floor amendments.
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IF the proposal to arm pilots passes in the Senate and pressure on the administration is high enough then US pilots may indeed get approval to operate armed. At this point the problems mentioned already in these posts will need to be addressed, selection, training, regulations and security issuses. Since roadblocks will be inserted by various parties at all stages this could take a while.
It is already being claimed that a very small number of pilots will actually be qualified, even wish, to carry firearms as a result of the projected rules to be applied. (Such as, quiet reasonably, great and potentially onerous responsibility for security of the firearm and total abstinence from alcohol while in possession (at all times).
However, the object of the legislation will have been achieved. Terrorists will have another, very major, obstacle that they will have to contend with in the planning of their activities. They will now have to consider the potential of an armed pilot on the aircraft. Whereas, with Air Marshals the terrorists know that the number of Air Marshals is limited and they cannot cover every flight they know there is a pilot on EVERY flight and that that pilot could be armed.
Perhaps the armed pilot program could work in a sort of reverse way. Since the terrorists know every pilot is potentially armed perhaps they may give up the idea of aircraft targets in favour of something a little easier. Perhaps the arming of pilots could, in fact, be a means of releasing security personnel to defend presently lightly defended targets.
It is already being claimed that a very small number of pilots will actually be qualified, even wish, to carry firearms as a result of the projected rules to be applied. (Such as, quiet reasonably, great and potentially onerous responsibility for security of the firearm and total abstinence from alcohol while in possession (at all times).
However, the object of the legislation will have been achieved. Terrorists will have another, very major, obstacle that they will have to contend with in the planning of their activities. They will now have to consider the potential of an armed pilot on the aircraft. Whereas, with Air Marshals the terrorists know that the number of Air Marshals is limited and they cannot cover every flight they know there is a pilot on EVERY flight and that that pilot could be armed.
Perhaps the armed pilot program could work in a sort of reverse way. Since the terrorists know every pilot is potentially armed perhaps they may give up the idea of aircraft targets in favour of something a little easier. Perhaps the arming of pilots could, in fact, be a means of releasing security personnel to defend presently lightly defended targets.
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Just for fun, this evening I hung my mobile phone on my belt and then drove into the local village having strapped myself in as all good drivers should.
As I was "proceeding in an orderly fashion" the moble phone rang!! Just trying to extricate the phone from within the constraints of my safety belt was a major operation (and Yes I know I should have parked by the side of the road but this is Thailand) but my point is this.
Here I am, a bonza airline pilot with my Magnum Whatever strapped to my waist. An "evil doer" dives headfirst through the plastic and cardboard that makes up the door to the flightdeck and...
What to do?
Come on guys. The armed option is futile and dangerouse. Make the access to the flightdeck impossible and the "evil doers" will have to think of something else.
As I was "proceeding in an orderly fashion" the moble phone rang!! Just trying to extricate the phone from within the constraints of my safety belt was a major operation (and Yes I know I should have parked by the side of the road but this is Thailand) but my point is this.
Here I am, a bonza airline pilot with my Magnum Whatever strapped to my waist. An "evil doer" dives headfirst through the plastic and cardboard that makes up the door to the flightdeck and...
What to do?
Come on guys. The armed option is futile and dangerouse. Make the access to the flightdeck impossible and the "evil doers" will have to think of something else.
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Excuse me Xeque but I must point this out. Just because you are incapable of tying your shoe laces without falling over does not mean everyone else is similarly physically impaired.
I have seen very impressive demonstrations of trained people actually bringing a pistol into operation whilst performing a forward roll along the ground and firing accurately when they stop rolling. In fact, it would be my personal opinion that , after the cockpit door was secured, there are better places to stow a firearm than on your body, such as positioned vertically between your flight manuals in your flight bag. This provides easy access to the firearm and yet would provide concealment and allow you to prevent easy access to the weapon if the cockpit should be entered by a baddy.
To get sensible about the factors involved in firearms carriage by anyone, not just pilots. I am licensed to carry a concealed weapon as are many other ordinary citizens of my state - it is no big deal to qualify. I passed a character test, legal investigation and had to carry out minimal training. There are thousands of other citizens in my state just like me who can carry concealed weapons, it has been this way for quite a few years. Do you know how many times concealed weapons have been used illegally by these people, ONCE.
Surely, if the average citizen, who is willing to become properly certified for the right, can be trusted with legal and sensible use of a concealed weapon then a pilot, who undergoes far more stringent psychological and medical testing than the average man and who we would expect to have far more "operational" wisdom and ability to handle stressful situations than the average man can be trusted also. As pilots we are far more aware of the dangers inherent in using a firearm in an aircraft than the average man, even a law enforcement type.
I am getting rather fed up with the oft expressed opinion on this site that somehow pilots, usually of another nationality, are subject to attacks of JohnWaynia and at the first opportunity would rush about an aircraft shooting all and sundry. If this is really your belief look across the cockpit at the next person you fly with. Ask yourself if he or she is the type to run amok. If the answer is "yes" then ask yourself what the heck you are doing sitting next to that person flying an aerolplane. One of you should not be in that cockpit.
The granting of permission to carry a firearm in defense of others bestows a great responsibility. However, it is a responsibility which has been laid on many other people, policemen, immigration officials, almost any federal or state law enforcement official of any type. Pilots who express the feeling that somehow their brother pilots are incapable of meeting the qualification standards of these other occupations are seriously belittling themselves.
I have seen very impressive demonstrations of trained people actually bringing a pistol into operation whilst performing a forward roll along the ground and firing accurately when they stop rolling. In fact, it would be my personal opinion that , after the cockpit door was secured, there are better places to stow a firearm than on your body, such as positioned vertically between your flight manuals in your flight bag. This provides easy access to the firearm and yet would provide concealment and allow you to prevent easy access to the weapon if the cockpit should be entered by a baddy.
To get sensible about the factors involved in firearms carriage by anyone, not just pilots. I am licensed to carry a concealed weapon as are many other ordinary citizens of my state - it is no big deal to qualify. I passed a character test, legal investigation and had to carry out minimal training. There are thousands of other citizens in my state just like me who can carry concealed weapons, it has been this way for quite a few years. Do you know how many times concealed weapons have been used illegally by these people, ONCE.
Surely, if the average citizen, who is willing to become properly certified for the right, can be trusted with legal and sensible use of a concealed weapon then a pilot, who undergoes far more stringent psychological and medical testing than the average man and who we would expect to have far more "operational" wisdom and ability to handle stressful situations than the average man can be trusted also. As pilots we are far more aware of the dangers inherent in using a firearm in an aircraft than the average man, even a law enforcement type.
I am getting rather fed up with the oft expressed opinion on this site that somehow pilots, usually of another nationality, are subject to attacks of JohnWaynia and at the first opportunity would rush about an aircraft shooting all and sundry. If this is really your belief look across the cockpit at the next person you fly with. Ask yourself if he or she is the type to run amok. If the answer is "yes" then ask yourself what the heck you are doing sitting next to that person flying an aerolplane. One of you should not be in that cockpit.
The granting of permission to carry a firearm in defense of others bestows a great responsibility. However, it is a responsibility which has been laid on many other people, policemen, immigration officials, almost any federal or state law enforcement official of any type. Pilots who express the feeling that somehow their brother pilots are incapable of meeting the qualification standards of these other occupations are seriously belittling themselves.
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Just knowing that the pilot is probably armed with turn away any potenital hijacker.
There are sites in the USA where one can check the violent crime rates and burglaries for states which have strict gun control, and those that allow it's citizens to carry a concealed weapon.
Do the search, and make your own judgements.
An armed society is a POLITE society.
There are sites in the USA where one can check the violent crime rates and burglaries for states which have strict gun control, and those that allow it's citizens to carry a concealed weapon.
Do the search, and make your own judgements.
An armed society is a POLITE society.
jetsy
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Guys...
Tripower,
Whatsalizad…
I am sorry for this lat(er) reply, I did not try to ignore you..
“What makes it unaccessable? A locked door? The guards outside of it? Symantics. Help is not far away.
I don't know enough about nuclear power to argue what effect a stray round would have when fired in a control room. Would it be as bad as if a terrorist who knew what he was doing pulled the control rods out all the way? Besides, when was the last time a terrorist hijacked the control room of a npp (not to say that it can't/won't happen....)? Maybe you should be armed!”
Not really. There are 2 doors and 2 controllers (on the everage). You think terrorists will not know it? Have 1 at each door and you’re done.
To pull the rods takes time and the moderator will “kick” in automatically filling the containment building (pwr’s) reducing neutrons escape to atmos. (In short)
They won’t have it (that time) unless they are incapacitated. You fire a (stray) bullet at the controls and you are as good as dead, so is half of the population in the 30+ mile radius.
And no, Tripower. Not everyone has access to everywhere. The magnetic card, palm reading will open the door only to those who are to be there.
I do not want to be armed. I trust the ones that are, were or to be hired to do this job. Especially after September 11.
“An airliner is not going to blow up (or even go critical) if someone fires a round into a cb panel. Certainly nothing as bad a having the aircraft flown into a building will happen. That argument also doesn't seem to apply to sky marshalls, barney fifes etc. who, I guess never miss......... “
Never mind the cb’s, have this sob you shot fall on the power levers and who will desperately pull them up and to off, extend flaps, slats, brakes, at fl350, what do you do?
Whatsalizad
You and I both know it is impossible to have in the US what El-Al has. All I am saying is that maybe before you make the pax nervous, having this firearm,you should try the security measures the feds try to provide. Let them have their shot at it first.
As I said you almost need to be a superman to get to the nukes and you have the same folks, background-checked, palm, eye read coming in everyday for many years. So you have a point, it’s not the same.
Lizad, I am not an American, but been here for a while now, and hate to see this land become another gun-run, desperate, scared and run by weapons under the “excuse” of security. Gotta draw a line somewhere.
Wino…
Stay coll!!!
I. M. Esperto
“An armed society is a POLITE society.”
Sure…
You’ll be polite as long as they whip this .38 at you, then you go home and call them bastards.
Whatsalizad…
I am sorry for this lat(er) reply, I did not try to ignore you..
“What makes it unaccessable? A locked door? The guards outside of it? Symantics. Help is not far away.
I don't know enough about nuclear power to argue what effect a stray round would have when fired in a control room. Would it be as bad as if a terrorist who knew what he was doing pulled the control rods out all the way? Besides, when was the last time a terrorist hijacked the control room of a npp (not to say that it can't/won't happen....)? Maybe you should be armed!”
Not really. There are 2 doors and 2 controllers (on the everage). You think terrorists will not know it? Have 1 at each door and you’re done.
To pull the rods takes time and the moderator will “kick” in automatically filling the containment building (pwr’s) reducing neutrons escape to atmos. (In short)
They won’t have it (that time) unless they are incapacitated. You fire a (stray) bullet at the controls and you are as good as dead, so is half of the population in the 30+ mile radius.
And no, Tripower. Not everyone has access to everywhere. The magnetic card, palm reading will open the door only to those who are to be there.
I do not want to be armed. I trust the ones that are, were or to be hired to do this job. Especially after September 11.
“An airliner is not going to blow up (or even go critical) if someone fires a round into a cb panel. Certainly nothing as bad a having the aircraft flown into a building will happen. That argument also doesn't seem to apply to sky marshalls, barney fifes etc. who, I guess never miss......... “
Never mind the cb’s, have this sob you shot fall on the power levers and who will desperately pull them up and to off, extend flaps, slats, brakes, at fl350, what do you do?
Whatsalizad
You and I both know it is impossible to have in the US what El-Al has. All I am saying is that maybe before you make the pax nervous, having this firearm,you should try the security measures the feds try to provide. Let them have their shot at it first.
As I said you almost need to be a superman to get to the nukes and you have the same folks, background-checked, palm, eye read coming in everyday for many years. So you have a point, it’s not the same.Lizad, I am not an American, but been here for a while now, and hate to see this land become another gun-run, desperate, scared and run by weapons under the “excuse” of security. Gotta draw a line somewhere.
Wino…
Stay coll!!!
I. M. Esperto
“An armed society is a POLITE society.”
Sure…
You’ll be polite as long as they whip this .38 at you, then you go home and call them bastards.
